Personal temper findings

[saevel]

Hey, no need to get all mad that I'm dealing in absolutes when it seems to be you who doesn't let your definitions evolve along with the game. No. I would not consider a lot of that old content to be higher tier content anymore. And I'm sure, if you have a really competent group backing you up, they can allow you to indulge in your desire to melee. But don't trick yourself into thinking it's anything more than an indulgence.

I'm not going to bother defining what "Supporting" and "enfeebling" mean. But it certainly doesn't mean getting up in the mob's face and swinging your sword. Because if that's what it is, the sad fact is that you're not needed there on RDM. Better to be WHM-2 than yet another frontliner that needs to be supported.

Ohh I'm not angry at all, I've had this conversation in various forms too many times over the years to let ignorance make me angry. What I can tell you is that I've dis-proven each and every point you've made and will attempt to make, and all before abyssea.

If you've followed any of the threads on this forum then you'd know that not only am I proponent of our melee aspect, I'm also a big proponent of all our other aspects to and include those moments where you need to focus on curing. There is no golden "go to" rule for anything, no such thing as "high tier content". Everything is on a case by case situational determination, which required the RDM in question be both experienced and have good situational awareness.

RDM is the second most survivable job, only being beat out by PLD. Between us a WAR / SAM / DRG / DRK / MNK, we would have the least chance of dieing, and least support requirements. Before SE nerfed the enmity from sleep / bind / blind / dispel we even tanked HNMs, turned out to be one of the best tanks. Thus anything that would sideline a RDM would also sideline a WAR, DRK, MNK, DRG, SAM and all the other "real" DDs. At least on the sidelines we can continue to contribute something, rather then sitting with our GAXEs shoved where the sun don't shine.

So we're hard to kill and can contribute a significant amount of damage (don't even try to argue this, I'll destroy you) while being capable of supporting ourselves (we don't need haste / refresh or really much healing) and if / when things go south, we can continue to support even while weakened, where as the "real" DD's would either be dead or sitting on the side weakened.

Pretty much the only area RDM sucks is hitting weakness's, and that's 100% SE's fault for not giving us anything unique.

All in all, that looks to be a pretty useful job to have around. Doesn't specialize in any one task but can quickly perform several different tasks as the situation warrants.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm tanking was only good on Nms you didn't viably melee. The moment you could feasibly melee it, Rdm wasn't a good tank for it.

War has fairly good survivability with /Sam and Bravura if necessary, but Ukon just does more damage (ignoring the -def and -evasion effects). Unless the -DT on Bravura is the difference between surviving and dying, there's no real need for it.

Sam and Mnk both have fairly good damage mitigation on top of damage potential.

Drg has issues with their pet dying from AoEs, no damage mitigation other than SJ, better off using jumps to shed hate etc.

Would like to know this significant damage you're adding, it's apparently too early in the morning and I've overlooked it.

[saevel]

Rdm tanking was only good on Nms you didn't viably melee. The moment you could feasibly melee it, Rdm wasn't a good tank for it.

War has fairly good survivability with /Sam and Bravura if necessary, but Ukon just does more damage (ignoring the -def and -evasion effects). Unless the -DT on Bravura is the difference between surviving and dying, there's no real need for it.

Sam and Mnk both have fairly good damage mitigation on top of damage potential.

Drg has issues with their pet dying from AoEs, no damage mitigation other than SJ, better off using jumps to shed hate etc.

Would like to know this significant damage you're adding, it's apparently too early in the morning and I've overlooked it.

RDM tanking worked on Dark Ix'ion, Khimera and JoL (at 75) amongst other things. It was actually the harder fights that we excelled in due to our ability to build large amounts of hate and simply not die. I'm really laughing at the idea of using TE for mitigation on anything remotely dangerous. It's not the melee hits that will kill you, its the ridiculous aoe's that will do you in. This is why TE is a great damage mitigation tool on ash and trash but seriously lacking on big fights. MNK's don't really tank per se, they just hit stuff really fast and have the white mage spam Cure V on them with infinite MP. The moment that's no longer a viable strategy you'll get a flattened monk. Counter is right up there with TE, won't do anything for aoe's or magic damage.

As for damage, there is absolutely NOTHING special about RDM. No hidden JT's, no special RDM only formula's that imply suckage. You use the same numbers as anyone else, so all you need to do is manipulate and control those numbers. You'll find its not nearly as hard as you guys make it out to be. Haste, Acc, Atk, DA, fSTR, crit hit and a decent WS are all you need, and it's only the last one that a RDM has issues with. I used to spam Pizza+1, these days I don't even need to do that anymore, just spam Bison Steak or maybe even Dragon Steak. If the NM happens to be evasive, I still pack plenty of Pizza +1.

Honestly the only thing holding back damage is the support load that is required, and that shifts from fight to fight, moment to moment. There is nothing being within melee distance does to stop you from hitting a macro that is,

/equip cure item 1
/equip cure item 2
/equip cure item 3
/equip cure item 4
/ma "Cure IV" <stal>

Cool thing about that macro is that it'll put a cursor on the player list that you can use to choose the target while your still swinging. Makes support healing while engaged an absolute breeze.

Reapply enfeebles as they wear off and continue to gain TP -> spam WS.

Keep stoneskin up, keep blinks up, keep self buffs up. Keep any assigned party buffs up.

Honestly out of all those, it's SS that will take the most time from you, as super monsters spam AoE's your skin will need to constantly be reapplied.

[saevel]

Now for what you really think.

Your one of the "RDM melee is fine as a toy" group. For yourself it can never be more, no matter what someone else does you'll just write it off to some outside circumstance. There are a few fallacies that could be used here, but I think moving the goalposts is a good one to use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

Might even be a no true scotsman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Neisan_Quetz]

Or just post proof? I think Rdm melee is a toy because that's what it is right now. As of 95 cap Rdm melee at best is behind a Blu that never uses a single spell. If your only jobs are all mages notBlu, Rdm is probably your best melee (Bar whm shenanigans). If you leveled a single other job, it's a better melee/DD than Rdm.

[saevel]

Or just post proof? I think Rdm melee is a toy because that's what it is right now. As of 95 cap Rdm melee at best is behind a Blu that never uses a single spell. If your only jobs are all mages notBlu, Rdm is probably your best melee (Bar whm shenanigans). If you leveled a single other job, it's a better melee/DD than Rdm.

I realize you don't know me. My fully geared and active jobs are,

SAM
RDM
WAR
BLU

Mostly geared jobs
PLD
DRK

I'm an extremely aggressive player, I hit sh!t, and I hit sh!t really hard and really fast. I tanked as a SAM/WAR back in 03/04, and again as a RDM/WAR (all lower level stuff). Later as a BLU/WAR. Also did main healing on BLU, that was interesting and extremely effective.

I like to play ALL aspects of jobs, I had a SAM/RNG build back when we did that.

The reason I enjoy RDM so much is that you can do just about anything at once, and your ridiculously hard to kill. I sh!t you not, during VWNM's I've say there and spamming shadows -> skin -> cure IV while this thing tries to kill me after I hit it with a couple CDC's upside it's head. Things like that simply aren't possible with the pure "DD" jobs without a WHM spamming cure V on them. And that is without a PDT / MDT set, I got rid of most of mine after they nerfed RDM tanking. In the process of rebuilding it now.

I've done so many parses that I've just stopped. No matter how many I do, the fallacy of the moving goal post is used. Here is a little tidbit, a dead DD deals no damage.

It's like everyone does damage comparisons vs a wall with infinite HP that doesn't fight back.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sam could Tank Dark Ixion, Mnk can tank Pil.


I have best melee Rdm set ~30% (probably closer to 25%) behind Blu not using a single spell.

[saevel]

Sam could Tank Dark Ixion, Mnk can tank Pil.


I have best melee Rdm set ~30% (probably closer to 25%) behind Blu not using a single spell.

And now I'm calling BS on you. Your using very stretched and obfuscated circumstances to define "tank". What you really mean is that a SAM with a couple WHM's spamming cure can hold Dark Ixion, until it WS's and one shoted the SAM. MNK is similiar with Pil, except MNK has enough HP that it won't be one shoted, but it'll need a ton of healers.

Both of those scenarios are examples of a red herring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorat...hi#Red_herring

Technically nearly any job can tank anything for a period of time, provided they got enough HP to not be one shoted and have enough people casting cure. The difference comes in how effectively a job can tank while reducing damage intake to a manageable amount. The less damage the tank takes the more the healers can focus on other melee's, otherwise you just got dead melees or only one or two people on the monster.

The fact that your using rare scenarios off BG, something you yourself have never done, just goes to show your running out of arguments. Your no longer arguing what a RDM is capable of and are now attempting to discredit by implying other jobs are ~more~ capable or just as capable. Neither the 75 SAM in DI nor the 95 MNK on Pil is capable of self supporting, or other supporting as the RDM is. Thus by definition a RDM has more capability then either of those two in either of those situations. Remember we have MDB along with Skin / Phalanx / Aquaveil to go with that PDT / MDT those two previously mentioned players were using.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Uh what? I have killed Dark Ixion, and a Prd or Rdm tank wasn't needed for it, thanks for assuming I haven't though.

Tanking isn't hard.


Rdm/Nin with offhand mandau and Dia 3 always active vs Blu/war with Dia 2/Triple attack/dualwield 2 set, used optimal sets for TP/WS versus a level 101 NM (560 defense 100 AGI 430 evasion). Rdm is a terrible melee DD.

[saevel]

Uh what? I have killed Dark Ixion, and a Prd or Rdm tank wasn't needed for it, thanks for assuming I haven't though.

Tanking isn't hard.


Rdm/Nin with offhand mandau and Dia 3 always active vs Blu/war with Dia 2/Triple attack/dualwield 2 set, used optimal sets for TP/WS versus a level 101 NM (560 defense 100 AGI 430 evasion). Rdm is a terrible melee DD.

I was talking about you being a SAM on DI or the MNK on Pil. DI will one shot anything without high MDT at 75, Lightening Spear ~will~ do that, anything else can be dealt with.

And which mobs are using those stats, or need I break out screen shots again. I've seen very few NM's with 500+ defense. Also laughing at you using /WAR on BLU, talk about cherry picking your stats to support your claim.

And stop using excel sheets to calculate damage vs a target with infinite HP that can't fight back. You'll lose to the MNK/WAR ~EVERY~ single time.