Cure Formula Changes

[Motenten]

Should this be getting put into a thread in the Test Server Feedback forum? Or at least the Cure VI stuff?

[Economizer]

I wish there was a PM function, but since there isn't:

Should this be getting put into a thread in the Test Server Feedback forum?

I'm not completely sure but I think if grabbing the attention of the devs via the community reps is your intention then it would be a very good idea to start a thread there with your impressions of it with any relevant data.

I think the risk of splitting up discussion into several threads isn't remotely an issue compared to the benefits of getting people talking about this if a new thread in the test server subforum would do that.

Also, thanks for all the amazing formula work.

-

(More stuff since I found something to add.)

I finally found some discussion in the JP forums today about this, apparently there was a little bit of testing (nothing like what we did though) a few people did that I managed to miss (which by the way is why we use Dev Tags people... or that's what I'd be telling them if I could understand Japanese).

回復魔法スキルについて。テストサーバーで学者さんしてきました。

Healing magic skills. Mr. scholar has been on a test server.

遅いかもしれませんが… 回復魔法スキルの検証お疲れ様です！

Cheers for good work magic skill verification of recovery may be slow ...!

They have a small sample and some impressions in a Scholar thread as linked by the quotes. The discussion goes on but the machine translation isn't fully capable of deciphering it into readable English so I can only guess by the gist of it that they are talking about Scholar, enmity generation, and something about the heal amounts bringing back the days of meripo.

While it is heart warming to know there is someone talking about it, meripo is a very bad word here. By the way, if anyone knows Japanese and wants to help out, we could use the general impression our fellow players have, machine translations are horrible and we could use more opinions.

[SpankWustler]

I think it would be a great idea to make a topic about Cure VI in the test server forum. It seems to be very frequently read by the Community Bros compared to all other forums and the spell is bad enough to essentially be the Ancient Magic of cures at this point. If nothing else, and I always expect nothing else, we might learn the thought process behind Cure VI.

While it is heart warming to know there is someone talking about it, meripo is a very bad word here.

I've seen the phrase "meripo" in a relatively large number of posts while poking around the Japanese forums for Community Bros posts and I can never make out what anyone is going for with the expression. Based on what context I can make out, I think it's just that entire nation's term for "fighting a bunch of not terribly challenging yet not terribly easy monsters" or "I'm over level 75 and I'm fighting a monster, yosh!" or something.

However, I'm certainly no expert on matters that involve Japan but exclude such things as breaking through the heavens with one's drill or people being so dorky that their lives become a black comedy of loneliness.

I'd love to know what is actually meant by "meripo" just to satisfy my own curiosity, because it doesn't seem to be a reference to past situations given that I've seen the word used in the Prism Staff thread and other forward-thinking threads.

In other unproductive news, looking through that Scholar topic with Google translate makes my everything hurt. It's a generic topic about Scholar, so getting context is impossible and it feels like everyone is talking about five totally different PHONETICALLY WRITTEN Scholar abilities in every single post. I also get the general idea that most of them are wowed by the scope of the change, though, which I think is very similar to English community.

[Aleste]

Some quick WHM gearset analysis
(I'll do some sch, rdm and pld later)

Now that the formula is knocked out, we can accurately figure out how well gearsets perform in relation to one another.

AF3+2 pants should be worn on always. The efficiency gained through their use effectively warrants a "best in slot" status.

I'm going to be using my basestats for the calculations. Consider the weakening of MND/VIT in the power formula other races shouldn't perform too differently.

440Skill
106MND
86 VIT
~(514 power)

Let's start with some Afflatus: Solace sets...

Here's a pretty good representation of the previous set we used to use at 99:

More power <------> More -ENM



50% Potency
+29 Skill +29 Skill
+65 MND +30 MND
+0 VIT +0 VIT
-0 ENM -31 ENM
(~61 power) (~44 power)

Cures:
1 - 94.5 93
2 - 207 205
3 - 471 465
4 - 885 874
5 - 1113 1105
6 - 1402 1386



Google-doc chat about best sets came up with this~

50% Potency
+65 Skill
+39 MND
+3 VIT
-6 ENM
(~84 power)

Cures:
1 - 96
2 - 208
3 - 477
4 - 898
5 - 1123
6 - 1423


Same as previous but switching fylgja+1/healing to colossus/orison

49% Potency
+66 skill |+69@lightsday
+37 MND
+3 VIT
-7 ENM
(~84 power | ~87@lightsday)

Cures:
1 - 95 96
2 - 207 208
3 - 473 475
4 - 892 894
5 - 1106 1117
6 - 1414 1416



Similar to the first set, keeping augurs gloves and trying rubeus shoes

50% potency
+63 skill |+66@lightsday
+37 MND
+3 VIT
-3 ENM
(~81 power |84@lightsday)

Cures:
1 - 96 96
2 - 208 208
3 - 477 477
4 - 897 898
5 - 1122 1123
6 - 1420 1423


Attempted to keep healers mitts and rubeus on. Although, it works out at a similar power as above, but with only 48% potency, and thusly performs worse.


Tefnut/Genbu combos used to be pretty decent pre-change, post-change it perform worse than any of the sets you see above... I'll math em out if anyone specifically wishes.

[Motenten]

Other things to consider:

Under the existing system there's no real benefit to casting in Orison body while under Afflatus Misery; you're better off with a +mnd body. In the new system you probably want to use the Orison body regardless. Curas/Curagas will still want the +mnd body, though, since they'll still use the existing formulas.

Tefnut Wand/Genbu's Shield combo still has the advantage of more easily capping cast time reduction. It's possible to hit 80% cure cast time reduction with augmented Genbu's Shield, AF3 neck/legs, Loquacious Earring, and various AH gear (HQ Kalasiris, Cure Clogs, ring, waist, ammo). Doable without Genbu's as well, with Aceso's Choker and the fast cast back piece, but seems easier to achieve with Genbu's (especially when you can start dropping small FC pieces as you account for subjob Fast Cast or Light Arts).

Tefnut is worth about half as much in contributing to the underlying cure value (old: ~6 HP on Cure V; new: ~3 HP on Cure V), but that difference is almost inconsequential. It's still a good piece, especially as an AH item.


Enmity.

Rough approximation (since Kaeko's tables don't go up to level 99), with 525 Power and 50% cure potency.

Cure 3: 305 * 1.5 = 457
Cure 4: 570 * 1.5 = 855
Cure 5: 727 * 1.5 = 1090

Cure 5 generates a flat 400 CE / 700 VE
Cure 4 generates about 510 CE / 1530 VE (would have been about 620 CE / 1860 VE at level 75)
Cure 3 generates about 270 CE / 810 VE

The difference in VE between Cure IV and Cure V will take an extra 14 seconds to decay. There's actually not much difference in the amount of CE generated, but -20 enmity would make them about equal. It would also drop VE by an extra 300, making the difference in decay time just 9 seconds.

If you had -12 enmity in your Cure V kit (Orison Cape/Earring/Fylgja Torque+1/Verse Strap+1), you'd want -30 enmity in your Cure IV kit to reach the same CE amount. That would give an 8 second difference in VE decay.

Of course Cure IV and Cure III have lower recast times than Cure V (8 and 6 seconds vs 10 seconds), which, combined with the lesser amount cured, means you'll probably be using them somewhat more often, so hate will likely build up a bit faster regardless.

In comparison, the 700 VE (616 with -12 enmity) of Cure V takes ~10 seconds to decay; with a 10 second recast (~8-9 seconds with Haste on), you'd have to be spamming it to have any net gain in total VE.


So, I'd probably aim for -25 enmity in my Cure III/IV kits. In addition to the -12 already in use:

Feet: Several options here.
Marduk: +10 mnd, -4 enmity
Teal: +6 mnd, -4 enmity
Relic+2: +8 mnd, -4 enmity
Aife's: -8 enmity
Blessed: +3 mnd, 2% haste, -4 enmity
Blessed+1: +4 mnd, 3% haste, -5 enmity

Can probably consider -4 enmity the baseline.

Leisure Musk, Metanoia Ring and Pythia Sash give another -12, for a total of -28 enmity at the cost of 13 mnd, which is all of like 2-3 HP cured.


Total enmity build-up.

Cure V (with -12 enmity) would take have to cure about 15k HP to reach 'significant' build up on CE (~5000 CE). However there would be no significant VE to go with it, so would still be fairly safe.

Cure IV (with -28 enmity) would reach 5000 CE with about 12k HP healed. If constantly spammed as fast as recasts allow (~100 seconds), that would have built up 10000 VE to go along with it. That capped VE would take about 3 minutes to decay. So, if all the curing was spread out over about 5 minutes, there would be no significant VE buildup, and it would be as safe as using Cure V. However if it was done in 2 minutes, the healer could be reaching notable hate problems.

Cure IV with the default gear set (-12 enmity), would reach 5000 CE with about 10k HP healed, and would reach that in ~80 seconds if spamming. They would also be at cap VE by that point (~5000 CE + 10000 VE), meaning they'd be running into hate issues far more easily.

[Motenten]

Additional note on efficiency: Cures 3 and 4 gain more efficiency from cure potency than cure 5, which gains more than cure 6. So on the charts I posted on the last page, the closer to the top of the chart, the faster it improves as you add cure potency (leaving Cure 6 even further behind, relatively speaking).

[SpankWustler]

One important thing to keep in mind is that Cure V is still pretty much Cure V. Cure IV has gotten way better rather than Cure V becoming notably worse.

In situations where Enmity is an imminent concern, a bro using mostly Cure V isn't much more likely run out of MP after the changes than before. Situations that go bad due to post-change Cure V expending too much MP would have been very tense already. There's simply the new option of using an extremely MP-efficient cure instead of an extremely Enmity-efficiency cure.

Overall, I really like the implications of these changes.

Equipment will matter more now than ever, whether it's Healing Magic skill for power or -Enmity for not being eaten. There will be strategic elements in deciding which Cure to cast that weren't present before. A lot of equipment that was almost pointless before, such as Sirona's Ring and the Healing Magic skill grip, will have a reason to exist. Healing Magic skill merits will mean something other than "This person, this person is not a smart person."

One thing that really surprises me is that it appears people subbing White Mage or Red Mage will have very slightly stronger cures than before, particularly if they go the extra mile and macro in the few Healing Magic skill pieces that don't compete with Cure Potency slots to get the most mileage out of their sub-jobs.

It must have taken the Development Bro who passionately loves bad things longer than he expected to make Cure VI even worse, perhaps because it was already pretty bad, since everything else seems to be improved or relatively unchanged.

[saevel]

So basically use Cure V whenever possible and Cure IV as a resort to prevent hate build up.

SCH and RDM could main heal a party but hate problems will be created.

Basically kill it before hate becomes an issue.

[TimeMage]

Changes have been pretty good, but other than fixing Cure VI (seriously, SE... Give it a purpose that is not sucking!), I think they could revise the static enmity values of Cure V. At 75, the enmity difference against Cure IV was more noticeable, and now that Cure IV is much more MP efficient, Cure V could use a slight improvement in the enmity department.

BTW, has anyone tested if this changes affect the WHM and RDM PUP automatons? RDM auto could become really interesting with boosted Cure IVs, and the tendency of spamming Cure VI of WHM automaton could be more annoying now, haha.

[Aleste]

BTW, has anyone tested if this changes affect the WHM and RDM PUP automatons? RDM auto could become really interesting with boosted Cure IVs, and the tendency of spamming Cure VI of WHM automaton could be more annoying now, haha.

Eco's been asking me to check the values on this, cura, curaga and BLU cures, but I can't say I've had a moment free to test it...

I'd hazard a guess and assume that they're using the new formula, otherwise they would have included it in the bolded part below:

Reference quote:

Cure Potency
Cure potency will be affected more significantly by healing magic skill. If a player has high healing magic skill, cure potency will be greatly increased, but low healing magic skill will have almost no effect on cure potency. The effect of skill level on cure potency will vary based on the type of cure, but cures lower than Cure V will be affected the most. Note that Curaga, Cura and Waltzes will not be affected.

• Cure I-IV: Up to 1.4 times the normal cure potency
• Cure V-VI: Almost no change

With this adjustment combined with the increase of cure potency mentioned earlier, we would like to increase opportunities for mages jobs other than white mage to serve as healers.[/LIST]