[dev1049] New weapon skills

[Afania]

Bolded for importance. This is why limiting the number of WS that can be merited will be nothing but a hindrance. People will still end up putting them into what is considered the best, instead of what they want, and there will be very little of that customization through limitation you so desire.

No it won't, ppl will merit the WS for their favorite job, or the job they play the most. There are no limit in the number of WS you can get, you can get all 15, just that 1/5 sucked too much that it's 5/5 or gtfo. The only fix they need is to pimp 1/5~4/5 to make them worth while that's all.

And you already agree that there are plenty of other ways to customize without adding more limitations...

Artificial limitations are not what make games fun. If that were true, nobody would bother leveling at all. It would all be about who can get through the game with the lowest merits and worst gear.

There are already articifical limitations and it doesn't stop ppl from lving all 20 jobs. If you're a galka NIN, your evasion won't be as high as mithra NIN. If you're a taru WAR, your dmg won't be as high elvaan WAR. If you merit enmity- for your BLM, your PLD gonna suck and so on. And yet we still see plenty of Galka NIN, taru WAR, ppl lv both PLD and BLM and so on. Are they play their job to fullest potential? No. But they still play different jobs and aim to get better and make up the small difference with gears/skill.

You already can't be best at everything in this game, and I don't see how ppl would ended up getting through the game with lowest merits and worst gear.

The only problem with merit WS is 1/5~3/5 or maybe even 4/5 are not worth getting, therefore there aren't much choice to make. If 1/5 is still good enough and worth getting it, I don't see how this can be a problem at all. It's not like the end of the world if one of your job doing is 100 less dmg with 1/5 than ppl with 5/5.

[FrankReynolds]

No it won't, ppl will merit the WS for their favorite job, or the job they play the most. There are no limit in the number of WS you can get, you can get all 15, just that 1/5 sucked too much that it's 5/5 or gtfo. The only fix they need is to pimp 1/5~4/5 to make them worth while that's all.

No one is going to do 1/5, or any variation of that. 5/5 is the only way they are powerful enough to be worth it. Please stop saying people can do 1/1.

There are already articifical limitations and it doesn't stop ppl from lving all 20 jobs. If you're a galka NIN, your evasion won't be as high as mithra NIN. If you're a taru WAR, your dmg won't be as high elvaan WAR. If you merit enmity- for your BLM, your PLD gonna suck and so on. And yet we still see plenty of Galka NIN, taru WAR, ppl lv both PLD and BLM and so on. Are they play their job to fullest potential? No. But they still play different jobs and aim to get better and make up the small difference with gears/skill.

You already can't be best at everything in this game, and I don't see how ppl would ended up getting through the game with lowest merits and worst gear.

The only problem with merit WS is 1/5~3/5 or maybe even 4/5 are not worth getting, therefore there aren't much choice to make. If 1/5 is still good enough and worth getting it, I don't see how this can be a problem at all. It's not like the end of the world if one of your job doing is 100 less dmg with 1/5 than ppl with 5/5.

Yes, there are already very small choices that must be made when meriting basic stats. Nobody calls that fun. They just deal with it. Not one single person has ever ever ever said "Hey SE, do you guys think you could add more category caps, and make the merits MORE specific, so that I have absolutely no chance off being good at both a mage and a DD class on the same character? I'm really tired of the temptation to do both.". Nobody likes that. they just accept it.

Why merit anything at all if you don't care that your jobs does less damage than others?

[Afania]

Yes, there are already very small choices that must be made when meriting basic stats. Nobody calls that fun. They just deal with it. Not one single person has ever ever ever said "Hey SE, do you guys think you could add more category caps, and make the merits MORE specific, so that I have absolutely no chance off being good at both a mage and a DD class on the same character? I'm really tired of the temptation to do both.". Nobody likes that. they just accept it.

Why merit anything at all if you don't care that your jobs does less damage than others?

What's so fun about playing a RPG if you can't create an unique aspect of your character, unless you go do relic/mythic and fill your inventory with 0.00001% situational pieces. A character's uniqueness based on gear grinding, inventory filling and "play style"(which never exist in this game) is pretty lame.

It's pretty pointless to create a character in a RPG that has nothing special, no weakness and no strength, nothing stands out. Unless your definition of fun is to be the very best at everything, do best dmg and won't allow even 0.1% of difference when comparing with someone else. If that's the case, then I really have nothing to say, since my definition of fun in a RPG, is different from you. For me a taru WAR doing 0.1% lower dmg than elvaan is personality, the unique aspect of being a taru WAR, for you it's hinderance to compete with other ppl.

I care about the role-playing element and being unique, if you only care about competition then that's too bad.

And personally I don't believe every_single_player in this game has same definition as you or me as well. Saying "nobody likes that, they just accept it" is just false assumption. Or else nobody would ever play a taru WAR, or galka mage, even though they know their DD/mage aspect would suck before they create their character.

No one is going to do 1/5, or any variation of that. 5/5 is the only way they are powerful enough to be worth it. Please stop saying people can do 1/1.

If you're only doing merit WS for your none-empy jobs, and if SE can raise mod of 1/5 to 80%, I don't see what's the very big deal about doing 1/5 for your none-empy jobs. You just want an acceptable performance and get invite to pt no? If you want performance that's above acceptable go do an empy/WoE. Doing 50 less dmg than other ppl is not the end of the world, kid. You will still get invited.

How many of the WS are gamebreakingly worth getting, though? It's not like they're all best-in-class skills. Most are a sidegrade at best next to their respective Empyrean WS, with or without Aftermath.

GK dagger gun(although for RNG probably not so much) club(although I think PLD BLU can totally just use almace) Axe.

Or maybe sword when needing none-elemental dmg.

The real game changing ones are not even more than 3~4.

[FrankReynolds]

What's so fun about playing a RPG if you can't create an unique aspect of your character, unless you go do relic/mythic and fill your inventory with 0.00001% situational pieces. A character's uniqueness based on gear grinding, inventory filling and "play style"(which never exist in this game) is pretty lame.

So your in favor of limiting merits, and you don't like the gearing aspect... how else do I enhance my Job performance (beside the obvious "just play better")?

It's pretty pointless to create a character in a RPG that has nothing special, no weakness and no strength, nothing stands out. Unless your definition of fun is to be the very best at everything, do best dmg and won't allow even 0.1% of difference when comparing with someone else. If that's the case, then I really have nothing to say, since my definition of fun in a RPG, is different from you. For me a taru WAR doing 0.1% lower dmg than elvaan is personality, the unique aspect of being a taru WAR, for you it's hinderance to compete with other ppl.

The jobs already have strengths and weakness. I can't melee Quiln on my whm. I can't main cure on monk. I don't need any merits or gear to prove that.

I care about the role-playing element and being unique, if you only care about competition then that's too bad.

It sounds to me like you want to be better at something just because you picked a certain job, and not have to actually put any work into meriting / gearing said job. That's cool and all, but an MMO that doesn't allow improvement of ones character is a dead MMO in a very short time frame. I mean, I guess if this was street fighter or mortal kombat, that would be cool, but it's not. I can go play a game with a clear beginning and end (not and MMORPG) if I don't want to build my character over time.

And personally I don't believe every_single_player in this game has same definition as you or me as well. Saying "nobody likes that, they just accept it" is just false assumption. Or else nobody would ever play a taru WAR, or galka mage, even though they know their DD/mage aspect would suck before they create their character.

Go back and read all your posts, and see how many little thumbs up you got.

EDIT: If people could switch races like they switch jobs, very very very few people would play melee jobs on taru. For instance. My taru started as WHM. He now has E.body, Black belt etc. I would love to change him to a hume. I can't. I suspect that some people picked tarus cuz they like them, many picked them because they wanted to make a mage char. None picked them because they like having low HP and Melee stats.

If you're only doing merit WS for your none-empy jobs, and if SE can raise mod of 1/5 to 80%, I don't see what's the very big deal about doing 1/5 for your none-empy jobs. You just want an acceptable performance and get invite to pt no? If you want performance that's above acceptable go do an empy/WoE. Doing 50 less dmg than other ppl is not the end of the world, kid. You will still get invited.

Using it at 1/5 would be worse than existing WS that people get as low as 60 in some cases. That will never happen, but keep repeating "1/5 is fine". Some people swear that affirmations work.

[Afania]

So your in favor of limiting merits, and you don't like the gearing aspect... how else do I enhance my Job performance (beside the obvious "just play better")?

I NEVER said I don't like gearing aspect, stop putting words in my mouth. I only said it needs more than gearing aspect. You can get every gear in this game literally, how'd you stand out if other ppl can get every other same gear too?

The jobs already have strengths and weakness. I can't melee Quiln on my whm. I can't main cure on monk. I don't need any merits or gear to prove that.

No I'm NOT talking about job's strength and weakness, I'm talking about strength and weakness as a character. What makes you think it's totally ok for a character with 10 job leveled, and spend 1/10 of time to gear/play PLD should be as good as a career PLD that plays PLD 95% of time, invest 95% of time to work on PLD? If someone's a career PLD, his PLD should be different than average PLDs, period.

If you want to focus on that job, your that job should be better than others, if you're willing to sacrifice other aspect. Other ppl who doesn't sacrifice other aspect to focus on one isn't "gimp", but they're just not the best. What makes you think it's totally ok if everyone can reach best, as best as the one who focus?(even though it's very hard in practice)

And it has nothing to do with me, it's just how many other RPGs works too, not because I want something so I'm saying this. Besides universal difference like gear/job, and indiviual player difference like reading forum/reaction speed, each CHARACTER also needs a difference that's more than name and appearance. Especially since you can job change, your character needs an identity.

It sounds to me like you want to be better at something just because you picked a certain job, and not have to actually put any work into meriting / gearing said job. That's cool and all, but an MMO that doesn't allow improvement of ones character is a dead MMO in a very short time frame. I mean, I guess if this was street fighter or mortal kombat, that would be cool, but it's not. I can go play a game with a clear beginning and end (not and MMORPG) if I don't want to build my character over time.

Yes I'm talking about improving your job right from the beginning. And there are very little option to, besides grinding gear. You can't develope your own play style by focusing on it because everything is restricted in game code and there are only the most optimal result. If you see someone sucked at one job, it's mostly because of his player skill as an indiviual player, not as a character. If someone sucked at playing PLD, it's mostly because he doesn't read forums, didn't swap gear correctly, and have slower reaction/laggy internet, fat chances are that his other jobs are gonna suck too. Gear difference isn't strength/weakness, since you can literally cap gear and obtain everything. Playing skill difference isn't strength/weakness, since it's, err, player skill as indiviual, and you can be good at all your jobs or suck at all your jobs. Only making choices through race/mission reward/merit are strength/weakness. It addes spice to the game, not JUST about grind gear. You like to grind gear? Sure! But I'm talking about it needs MORE than that, it needs to allow players to make choices, and what's wrong with wanting more?

Go back and read all your posts, and see how many little thumbs up you got.
EDIT: If people could switch races like they switch jobs, very very very few people would play melee jobs on taru. For instance. My taru started as WHM. He now has E.body, Black belt etc. I would love to change him to a hume. I can't. I suspect that some people picked tarus cuz they like them, many picked them because they wanted to make a mage char. None picked them because they like having low HP and Melee stats.

Go do a survey, unless you can prove that 100% of playerbase, all dislike race/storyline reward/merit system, your statement of "No one likes them they just accepts it" won't be true. I mean 100%, not 99%, or 99.999999%, you need to prove that not a single person out of all the FFXI players likes merit/race difference. Saying "No one" is pretty arrogant that you think you can represent everyone's opinion. Plus, by saying "No one" means if you want to prove you're right you need to ask everyone's opinion to prove you're right, but other ppl only need to find one person to disagree with you to prove you're wrong. I don't think it's a very good term to use in an arguement as it will place you in a disadvantage.

EDIT: If people could switch races like they switch jobs, very very very few people would play melee jobs on taru. For instance. My taru started as WHM. He now has E.body, Black belt etc. I would love to change him to a hume. I can't. I suspect that some people picked tarus cuz they like them, many picked them because they wanted to make a mage char. None picked them because they like having low HP and Melee stats.

No, ppl probably won't pick a taru because they want to be a good DD class, but yes, many picked them because they want to make a "good" mage char. And I'm pretty sure many career taru BLMs love their char as a taru too. Why do you only see the weakness of one char but never see the strength? A taru is typical example of strength/weakness. Your DD is weaker, but your mage is stronger. Does that makes your taru gimp? No, because your taru is a better BLM than an Elvaan BLM in same gear.

Seriously it seems that you just won't, and unwilling to accept the concept of strength/weakness. So you want taru/elvaan/mithra all the same? A taru BLM nuke same amount of dmg as Elvaan BLM in same gear? You don't get to make choices while developing your character? I don't see how that makes the game more fun.

Using it at 1/5 would be worse than existing WS that people get as low as 60 in some cases. That will never happen, but keep repeating "1/5 is fine". Some people swear that affirmations work.

ERRRRRARGHHHHH......that's all I want to say atm. Can you please read my post and what I tried to convey ;(
You already mentioned you got bored by reading in previous post, so I guess ;((((((

So I'm going to make it bold one last time, if you still won't get it, then I have nothing to say, not my problem that you don't want to read.

1. I never "suggest" player to do 1/5 as they are now.

2. I suggest SE to make 1/5 STRONGER THAN EXISTING WS AND TOTALLY USEABLE SO PPL CAN GET MORE THAN 3.

I feel I'm just talking to the wall, all the points I made about strength/weakness and making choices you don't seem to get it, and I got the feeling that you're not bothering to read at all, just insist that you're right and this game design(merit/race) is wrong because your taru DD isn't the best. I'm out of this pointless silly arguement unless you can come up with something new.

[FrankReynolds]

I NEVER said I don't like gearing aspect, stop putting words in my mouth. I only said it needs more than gearing aspect. You can , how'd you stand out if other ppl can get every other same gear too?

oh.

A character's uniqueness based on gear grinding, inventory filling and "play style"(which never exist in this game) is pretty lame.

And no. You can't "get every gear in this game literally".

What makes you think it's totally ok for a character with 10 job leveled, and spend 1/10 of time to gear/play PLD should be as good as a career PLD that plays PLD 95% of time, invest 95% of time to work on PLD? If someone's a career PLD, his PLD should be different than average PLDs, period.

If the guy with ten jobs spends more time on paladin than the guy with just paladin, then he should be better. You shouldn't get to be better at a job just because you didn't level another. The quality of your job should be based on the work you put in to it, not the work you didn't put into another job. My WHM mule shouldn't be better than my mains whm just because i leveled nin, monk, thf, dnc, war, red, blm, sum on my main. He's a mule. I put mad work into my main.

<cutting stuff out cuz this is getting ridiculously long> as best as the one who focus?(even though it's very hard in practice)

Again, no one has all the gear. Go read the voidwatch threads if you think gear is raining from the sky. Get over it.

your character needs an identity.

No. You need an identity, and your willing to sacrifice other peoples enjoyment to get one because its easier than getting one by working on your gear / skills.

And there are very little option to, besides grinding gear. You can't develope your own play style by focusing on it because everything is restricted in game code and there are only the most optimal result. If you see someone sucked at one job, it's mostly because of his player skill as an indiviual player, not as a character. If someone sucked at playing PLD, it's mostly because he doesn't read forums, didn't swap gear correctly, and have slower reaction/laggy internet, fat chances are that his other jobs are gonna suck too. Gear difference isn't strength/weakness, since you can literally cap gear and obtain everything. Playing skill difference isn't strength/weakness, since it's, err, player skill as indiviual, and you can be good at all your jobs or suck at all your jobs. Only making choices through race/mission reward/merit are strength/weakness. It addes spice to the game, not JUST about grind gear. You like to grind gear? Sure! But I'm talking about it needs MORE than that, it needs to allow players to make choices, and what's wrong with wanting more?

So what I'm getting from this is that you don't think people who practice, put in work and are skilled at the game should have stronger characters than people who dont have skill or put in work? You think that should be decided by what race / merit they choose?

Go do a survey, blah blah blah disadvantage.

I don't need to do a survey. There are thousands of reasons to pick taru as a character. Having low hp and weak melee stats is not one of them.

No, ppl probably won't pick a taru because they want to be a good DD class, but yes, many picked them because they want to make a "good" mage char. And I'm pretty sure many career taru BLMs love their char as a taru too. Why do you only see the weakness of one char but never see the strength? A taru is typical example of strength/weakness. Your DD is weaker, but your mage is stronger. Does that makes your taru gimp? No, because your taru is a better BLM than an Elvaan BLM in same gear.

Now your agreeing with me about the reasons behind picking a taru, but still insisting that people like being weaker at melee. They don't like the weak melee stats. They just like good mage stats more. Only insane people like being bad at something.

You already mentioned you got bored by reading in previous post, so I guess ;((((((

they are way too long.

So I'm going to make it bold one last time, if you still won't get it, then I have nothing to say, not my problem that you don't want to read.

1. I never "suggest" player to do 1/5 as they are now.

2. I suggest SE to make 1/5 STRONGER THAN EXISTING WS AND TOTALLY USEABLE SO PPL CAN GET MORE THAN 3.

So your suggestion is to make them just as good, but only require 1 merit instead of 5........

I feel I'm just talking to the wall, all the points I made about strength/weakness and making choices you don't seem to get it, and I got the feeling that you're not bothering to read at all, just insist that you're right and this game design(merit/race) is wrong because your taru DD isn't the best. I'm out of this pointless silly arguement unless you can come up with something new.

There is already enough difference between players just based on gear and skill to create individuality. I think your thinking everything is the same now because you see a lot of people in af3 in jeuno. Trust me. They all have different WS / PDT / MDT / EVA / MA / ACC / etc sets, macros, the list goes on. None of them have perfect gear. All of them play differently no matter how hard they try to be the same, and this will never change. If you are really that much in need of recognition for your individuality, try getting a face tattoo, or a really big piercing.

[Afania]

If the guy with ten jobs spends more time on paladin than the guy with just paladin, then he should be better. You shouldn't get to be better at a job just because you didn't level another. The quality of your job should be based on the work you put in to it, not the work you didn't put into another job. My WHM mule shouldn't be better than my mains whm just because i leveled nin, monk, thf, dnc, war, red, blm, sum on my main. He's a mule. I put mad work into my main.
.

Yes, I agree that ppl with 10 job lv and spend more time on PLD should be better than ppl with only one PLD and didn't spend as much time. I said it very clear that ppl who spent the most effort on a job
should be the best, right from the first post. And that's exactly how this game works atm, which I'm happy with and I don't think it needs a change at all. Someone can have 10 jobs lv, not PLD main, and have Aegis/Almace/Ochain/AF3+2. He doesn't have enmity+ merit, but his PLD is still better than a perle PLD main who only has enmity +5 merit. Why are you even worrying about ppl without enmity+ merit but has relic/empy can't beat a perle PLD with nothing but merit?

This is what's it like in this game right now and should just stay the same.

I'm not asking SE to remove the gear/skill difference entirely. There are already gear/skill difference in this game. But I see no reason to remove the merit/race difference, since those difference are very small compare with gear/skill difference. Only ppl who thinks this game is all about who is better and who is the best thinks that's important. If you really think so, you may as well go play a fighting game since every character stats are the same as long as you pick the same character.

This is a RPG, not a competitive game like fighting game, RPG is about personality, about creating background story, emotion, link to your character. And strength/weakness is part of personality. Making decision is part of it, to define the final look of character. Grinding gear/practicing skill has zero decision making element. I'm not asking SE to remove those element entirely, but there should be decision making element about developing your charater.


And I believe that's what SE wanted to, to give room to players to make decision, that's why they keep race/merit system or else they'd delete race/merit/storyline reward already.

No. You need an identity, and your willing to sacrifice other peoples enjoyment to get one because its easier than getting one by working on your gear / skills.
.

Me? Sacrifice other ppl's enjoyment? I'm not even the one who design the game, why is it my fault that this game has race/merit differernce >.> what you replied here isn't even rational. If you're not happy with the game because your character is X stat lower on one of the job due to race/merit, go play other games that has no race/merit system >.>

Now your agreeing with me about the reasons behind picking a taru, but still insisting that people like being weaker at melee. They don't like the weak melee stats. They just like good mage stats more. Only insane people like being bad at something.

I never insist that people like being weaker at melee.........

They just like good mage stats more, yes. Strength and weakness, a taru may hate his low STR, but may love his high INT and MP when playing mage classes.

If you can change race when you change job, or delete the race difference between each character, then they no longer have their mage advantage as a taru. You keep insisting on "weak melee" part as if every taru hates it, why not just let taru BLM main who enjoy playing BLM enjoy their superior stat.......

There is already enough difference between players just based on gear and skill to create individuality. I think your thinking everything is the same now because you see a lot of people in af3 in jeuno. Trust me. They all have different WS / PDT / MDT / EVA / MA / ACC / etc sets, macros, the list goes on. None of them have perfect gear. All of them play differently no matter how hard they try to be the same, and this will never change. If you are really that much in need of recognition for your individuality, try getting a face tattoo, or a really big piercing.

Yes, I agree that everyone has different WS/PDT/MDT etc sets, but the point is, there are "the best" WS/PDT/MDT/EVA set at certain situations because what's optimal is done by math. There are very little decision to be make when picking your gear sets, if your set is different from the best set, that only means your set isn't done, doesn't mean you make a decision to do so. Sometimes when you do get to make decision on gear sets, it's usually sidegrade only. 95% of gear set is if you don't use this set in that situation, you're doing it wrong.

And your definiation of individuality is about getting a face tattoo or big piercing? That's pretty shallow. But it seems you don't understand the concept at all, so w/e. I suggest you can play street fighter since every character you picked has same stat and it's pure skill based when you compete. No offense, SF is really a good game, just that when I control the character in a fighting game that character has nothing to do with me, but only a tool that I used to compete with other ppl since I never make any decision about how that character should develope.