[dev1049] New weapon skills

[Greatguardian]

It doesn't really matter anyways.

The number of people who actually hit the theoretical maximum on more than 3 jobs that actually use weapons is extremely slim as is.

Even if we had the option of maxing all 14 WS, you wouldn't have many people maxing every job. Sure, it's not hard to play any of them, but simply being well geared is a far cry from perfection. Even then, how well geared is the average player? Answer: Not.

Sure, literally anyone can finish Emps in anywhere from a few days to a couple weeks. Doesn't mean they do.

[Amador]

It doesn't really matter anyways.

The number of people who actually hit the theoretical maximum on more than 3 jobs that actually use weapons is extremely slim as is.

Even if we had the option of maxing all 14 WS, you wouldn't have many people maxing every job. Sure, it's not hard to play any of them, but simply being well geared is a far cry from perfection. Even then, how well geared is the average player? Answer: Not.

Sure, literally anyone can finish Emps in anywhere from a few days to a couple weeks. Doesn't mean they do.

That doesn't imply there should be a limitation to it. Yes people do, those that care to do so do.

There's a wide difference in players, from those who are average joe's to the elitest core who actually excel and perform on whatever job they get on because they've taken the time to invest into being useful to that degree.

This is a huge difference compared to the type of player who simply has 2 jobs to offer, that aren't required for x event due to whatever reason and or other people who have the same jobs that do the jobs better. It's about being able to utilize what you have available to form solid tactics, not to just rofl through an event only to stand up and say: What do I lot?

[Greatguardian]

I think you misinterpreted my post.

Even among the elitist core, how many people have a slew of perfect geared jobs? I'm talking perfect, not above average or even awesome. Perfect. Absolute best of everything for everything.

The answer is very few. Exceedingly few. So few that Afania really has nothing to worry about. You will never, ever see a massive horde of perfect geared players with multiple perfect jobs and no variance in FFXI. Knowing the maximum is one thing. Perfecting everything? That's a feat. When most people can't even be assed to get an Empyrean or two, you really don't have to worry about everyone being the same.

[SpankWustler]

They shouldn't make merit WS a necessary to have in any event, instead it should be a nice bonus.

I only use blue mage as an example, why brought up all the masochist talk? It's not constructive at all and only seems childish.

What the development team probably "should" be doing and what they do tend to vary tremendously. I find it best to live in fear.

Sorry, I didn't mean it to be an insult. Just a reference to how miserable the workings of Voidwatch procs can be for Blue Mage, since you specifically mentioned Voidwatch and Blue Mage. I don't know anyone who has reported happiness with Blue Mage in relation to Voidwatch, particularly the proc system.

I probably should have been more clear and just said "Blue Mage in Voidwatch with a candlestick" is a pretty weird example of a specific job being needed for a thing. So weird, in fact, that I assumed it was a personal anecdote and you don't mind how brutal Voidwatch can be for Blue Mage.

I also tend to assume most folks on the internet are pretty gruff with language, but obviously that's not always the case. Sorry that my comment bothered you.

The answer is very few. Exceedingly few. So few that Afania really has nothing to worry about. You will never, ever see a massive horde of perfect geared players with multiple perfect jobs and no variance in FFXI. Knowing the maximum is one thing. Perfecting everything? That's a feat. When most people can't even be assed to get an Empyrean or two, you really don't have to worry about everyone being the same.

You can even take this further. Even if someone had the time to make a whole bunch of Empyrean and Mythic and Relic weapons and got lucky enough with Voidwatch drops and sky and abjuration augmentation and whatever else I am forgetting, they would then be faced with another issue.

Loads and loads of equipment to store and manage. Sometimes, in cases like Red Mage and Blue Mage, even figuring out what to carry in the limited equip-from-able space for one job. The bestest Blue Mage has the best Charged Whisker set. The bestest Blue Mage has the best Sanguine Blade set. The bestest Blue Mage has the best Breathe set. And so on.

So yeah, I doubt anyone is in any danger of being the bestest of the bester at a large number of jobs.

[Afania]

Sorry, I didn't mean it to be an insult. Just a reference to how miserable the workings of Voidwatch procs can be for Blue Mage, since you specifically mentioned Voidwatch and Blue Mage. I don't know anyone who has reported happiness with Blue Mage in relation to Voidwatch, particularly the proc system.

I probably should have been more clear and just said "Blue Mage in Voidwatch with a candlestick" is a pretty weird example of a specific job being needed for a thing. So weird, in fact, that I assumed it was a personal anecdote and you don't mind how brutal Voidwatch can be for Blue Mage.

I guess using BLU in VW is a bad example then, but I also used THF as example, that when TH is needed nobody would care whether it has good gear/certain WS or not. And since most of the important game content nowadays are proc based, coming on certain job mostly are based on proc instead of your job's performance.

This whole thing is not even close to a rational argument.... The design team has never allowed players to max out any merit category. There has always been a limit on the total you can spend. So asking them to suddenly let players max every WS makes no sense at all and does not even follow the basic design concept behind the merit point system.

And everyone should totally suggest SE to delete the difference between each race too since taru WAR has lower STR than Elvaan WAR thus not playing WAR to fullest potential. And race difference shouldn't exist in a game that can job change.

I think the best solution of this that may make everyone happy is to increase the mod of 1/5 for each WS greatly, that way you have 15 merit to spend, you can choose 1/5 on 10 weapons and 5/5 on one weapon. The weapon you do 1/5 is gonna be 100 dmg lower than 5/5 people, but that's very small difference and totally acceptable for someone without empy/relic to use and do acceptable dmg, you're just not gonna beat 5/5 ppl.

And if you think that's not acceptable that you must do as much dmg as everyone else on 20 jobs, then I really don't know what to say.

From a game designing prospective, a lot of other long time RPGs, like fallout, D&D and such allows you to customize your charater. I can create a character with low STR, but very high INT and speech skill, I can talk through everything, but when I gonna face a fight, I'm gonna have a hard time, and I'm unable to use some of the best weapon/armor in the game. Or I can create a completely different character, a strong fighter but not so good at dealing with others. But I can not create a character that's both good at fighting and equip best weapons, and still able to talk through every NPCs.

It is articifical limitation, and that's what makes the game fun, by creating limitations. I'm forced to think of a way to get out of the situations based on my strength and weakness. Instead of having a character that's perfect and able to deal with everything and reach fullest potential of everything. I'm not going to experience everything on this character, but that's what makes the game interesting.

FFXI at least it allows you to redo storyline reward and redo merit points(even though it's a lot), so you're still able to experience everything on one single character without creating a new one, besides race difference.

And inb4 FFXI is not Fallout. Most of the RPGs more or less follow the basic concept of making the game, and that's how those games are sucessful. I don't see any reason for FFXI not to follow it and allow every character cap everything.

[brayen]

Implying 90% the playerbase doesn't already see you as inferior if you don't have an empyrean WS.

Thank you for further accentuating my point. Needing an emp is beyond retarded as a base level, these WS are easy enough to attain and are at least comparable (and in some cases better) then emp. ws. The fact they are being restricted pushes the typical/average player even lower in terms of performance, as the typical/average player do not wield emp but do have multiple jobs. I just don't see why some people are so against this. All we are saying is to not restrict what everyone can learn, i don't want to see people still using lv 60 WS at 99 and frankly if people are coming up with shortage on merit space this is what will happen, and i cant see anyone wanting said jobs(this feels like the old argument of "baww i camped HNM too much why arnt i special anymorez, stupidz new gear")

[Mirage]

Thank you for further accentuating my point. Needing an emp is beyond retarded as a base level, these WS are easy enough to attain and are at least comparable (and in some cases better) then emp. ws. The fact they are being restricted pushes the typical/average player even lower in terms of performance, as the typical/average player do not wield emp but do have multiple jobs. I just don't see why some people are so against this. All we are saying is to not restrict what everyone can learn, i don't want to see people still using lv 60 WS at 99 and frankly if people are coming up with shortage on merit space this is what will happen, and i cant see anyone wanting said jobs(this feels like the old argument of "baww i camped HNM too much why arnt i special anymorez, stupidz new gear")

I disagree, I think it will actually more close the gap between empy users and non-empy users. Take this somewhat realistic example:

Player 1: I have mnk war and sam, but I feel pretty gimp on war and especially on sam because I have neither ukko's or fudo. I mainly play mnk because i have revenant fists/verethranga there.

Player 2: I have war mnk sam and i have ukonvasara, masamune and verethranga. I play pretty much whatever I want, lol.

*after update*

Player 1 : Oh hay, that new gkatana is actually pretty good. if I merit that and use a tp bonus gk, I'll actually perform decently.

Player 2: Hm, some of those new WSes rival the empy WSes if you don't count the aftermath. Guess I'll get the Gkatana one to use when sekkanoki/meditate is up!

The best use I see for these merit WSes is to fill in the empy-WS gaps of your character. Use them on jobs that you don't care enough about to make an empy for, but still want to use now and then.

[saevel]

I disagree, I think it will actually more close the gap between empy users and non-empy users. Take this somewhat realistic example:

Player 1: I have mnk war and sam, but I feel pretty gimp on war and especially on sam because I have neither ukko's or fudo. I mainly play mnk because i have revenant fists/verethranga there.

Player 2: I have war mnk sam and i have ukonvasara, masamune and verethranga. I play pretty much whatever I want, lol.

*after update*

Player 1 : Oh hay, that new gkatana is actually pretty good. if I merit that and use a tp bonus gk, I'll actually perform decently.

Player 2: Hm, some of those new WSes rival the empy WSes if you don't count the aftermath. Guess I'll get the Gkatana one to use when sekkanoki/meditate is up!

The best use I see for these merit WSes is to fill in the empy-WS gaps of your character. Use them on jobs that you don't care enough about to make an empy for, but still want to use now and then.

Pretty much this.

Most of the new WS's seem to be directed at people / jobs who don't have emps. The new sword one is 5 hits with up to 100% MND WSC and TP mod is +attack. CDC will still beat it, but for those RDMs without CDC it makes an amazing alternative, especially once you consider that RDM has access to tons of +MND gear and tends to have lowish attack. BLU and PLD both have vorpal blade. Outside abyssea the new sword one will most likely be stronger then vorpal, so it's still an upgrade just not as big as going to CDC. Same with the SAM and WAR ones. I have CDC so I most likely won't get the sword weapon skill and instead get the GAXE / GKT due to me not having a ukon / fudo.

[FrankReynolds]

I disagree, I think it will actually more close the gap between empy users and non-empy users. Take this somewhat realistic example: ....... <example here>.....

.

I'm pretty sure that you just agreed with everything he said. Only difference being (maybe) that he doesn't want the merits capped to 3 WS.

Group 1~2 is meant to create variation between each jobs, so your NIN will be different from my NIN based on different merit, although in the end after most optimal merit choices are discovered, 90% of G1 G2 merits are the same.

Bolded for importance. This is why limiting the number of WS that can be merited will be nothing but a hindrance. People will still end up putting them into what is considered the best, instead of what they want, and there will be very little of that customization through limitation you so desire.

Merit, alone with race and story reward, is really just there to create variations.

And you already agree that there are plenty of other ways to customize without adding more limitations...

Artificial limitations are not what make games fun. If that were true, nobody would bother leveling at all. It would all be about who can get through the game with the lowest merits and worst gear.

[Afania]

Bolded for importance. This is why limiting the number of WS that can be merited will be nothing but a hindrance. People will still end up putting them into what is considered the best, instead of what they want, and there will be very little of that customization through limitation you so desire.

No it won't, ppl will merit the WS for their favorite job, or the job they play the most. There are no limit in the number of WS you can get, you can get all 15, just that 1/5 sucked too much that it's 5/5 or gtfo. The only fix they need is to pimp 1/5~4/5 to make them worth while that's all.

And you already agree that there are plenty of other ways to customize without adding more limitations...

Artificial limitations are not what make games fun. If that were true, nobody would bother leveling at all. It would all be about who can get through the game with the lowest merits and worst gear.

There are already articifical limitations and it doesn't stop ppl from lving all 20 jobs. If you're a galka NIN, your evasion won't be as high as mithra NIN. If you're a taru WAR, your dmg won't be as high elvaan WAR. If you merit enmity- for your BLM, your PLD gonna suck and so on. And yet we still see plenty of Galka NIN, taru WAR, ppl lv both PLD and BLM and so on. Are they play their job to fullest potential? No. But they still play different jobs and aim to get better and make up the small difference with gears/skill.

You already can't be best at everything in this game, and I don't see how ppl would ended up getting through the game with lowest merits and worst gear.

The only problem with merit WS is 1/5~3/5 or maybe even 4/5 are not worth getting, therefore there aren't much choice to make. If 1/5 is still good enough and worth getting it, I don't see how this can be a problem at all. It's not like the end of the world if one of your job doing is 100 less dmg with 1/5 than ppl with 5/5.