[dev1049] New weapon skills

[Raelia]

Hey I just do Apollyon NW DRK/DNC solo (no bosses though) so what do I know?

[Economizer]

One of the worst mistakes SE has ever pulled (even the dev team is human) is making job abilities and spells that are unlocked with merits. Yes, having effects improved by merits may have great potential, but it was always a bad idea to have the base version unlocked by merits when that means that players have to choose between being able to perform each one with mediocrity or being able to perform one or two the way they were made to be used.

While I could explain the things that were wrong with the merit system at length, it basically boils down to a few basic points. This is a very different MMO from others. Part of this is because we have a job system that allows people to do everything with one job given enough time and effort. This is very unlike many other MMOs where you are locked to your class from day one, and have to get a new character in order to perform a different role. The uniqueness and intelligent design of the jobs system in FFXI should not be beaten on its face any more then it already has.

While the "Other" category merits were a nice boost to characters, and stat boosts (STR/DEX/VIT/AGI/INT/MND/CHR/MP/HP) are acceptable and even neat like race selections were, and even Skill Boosts are still in the range of okay, the individual class merits at times pushed past this boundary. Still, class choices were at least restricted to classes, so at least if you liked to play as a more offensive version of one class and a more defensive version of another, you could tailor to this.

Basically, bringing merits into this to compare is wrong, because previous merit categories have been widely different - even when they strongly enforced differing play styles, they were at least limited to their individual jobs.

When it comes to Weapon Skills, few people if any really want to sacrifice the potential they should be at in order to be able to use them all. And I'm sure the dev team worked and toiled very hard on each and every animation... which makes me wonder - why would they deliberately decide to implement a system that encourages players to never use 11 of the 14 animations that they designed? This would be like making players decide between being able to go to Sea or Sky exclusively, unless they payed a non-refundable deposit of one million experience points!

Further, this especially punishes niche weapon skills and weapons, especially on unpopular jobs. You basically have to start choosing between weapons altogether, rather then letting the situation let you choose your job then your weapon. Like to solo on one class that is widely different from the ones you party with? Too bad because you can't get the WS you want without being gimp in parties!

All of this is a terrible price to pay for an artificial limitation on being able to enjoy all of the new content to its fullest. Players will already be paying one million merit points per weapon skill, which while this may be a fair price, is a steep one. But it is not as steep as the price of gimping your ability to get into parties and events with jobs you've leveled and geared just because you couldn't justify making that job's weapon skill your third weapon skill over another.

Basically, I see no reason to cap out this particular merit category. But I know that sometimes the dev team is stubborn about certain things, so I'll just list a few ideas that would be better then the current plans for this. This list goes in order of the best option to the worst. Hopefully SE finds at least one of these better then the extremely limiting limit they have now.

• No point limits - the players earned their merit points, let them spend them!
• Increased point costs for increased point limits - having more then three weapon skills capped will cost progressively more to do then the first choices.
• Individual choices per job - each job has to unlock the weapon skills individually, but each job can unlock up to three.
• Twenty Point limit, with the first point in any category not counting towards maximum allocation.
• Thirty-four point limit - have an uneven amount that makes it clear that the intent is that players unlock all weapon skills and cap out five.

[Afania]

One of the worst mistakes SE has ever pulled (even the dev team is human) is making job abilities and spells that are unlocked with merits. Yes, having effects improved by merits may have great potential, but it was always a bad idea to have the base version unlocked by merits when that means that players have to choose between being able to perform each one with mediocrity or being able to perform one or two the way they were made to be used.
[/LIST]

I disagree, I think ppl in this game should have some form of specilization, and IMO merit WS is a good choice.

It's just like rl, you can't master everything in your career, if you want to master one thing you gonna sacrifice another. You can't be best musician and best lawyer+ best accoutant at once, that just doesn't work.

You get best by choosing a job, and take that path, and excel it. Those who spend most effort on this job should be the best.

Ever since Abyssea release there are no "main job" anymore, +2 is easy to get, empy is easy to get, every player has 1338 +2 jobs and empyreans, and all equally geared. If you want to make your main job stand out, it's really hard, because it doesn't take more than 3 months to grind best gears for every job you have. Even if you want to make your main job better than the rest by sacrificing your other jobs, you don't get the choice to.

And what's the point if your main job can't be better than others no matter how hard you try? You're forced to play and pimp other jobs, because if player A has 10 pimp jobs, player B only has 1, ppl would want player A in pt a lot more.

And this is not the first time SE do this with storyline gears, they've released 3 mini-expansion, which you can only pick 2 augments. I picked augment for my COR, so my BLU ended up being gimp cuz there are some other augments my BLU can benefit a lot, but I don't really care. It's my choice, I want to pimp this job and willing to sacrific other job for it. If there's another player who picked the augment for other jobs, that's totally fine. But I certainly don't want to see everyone owning 20 of mini-expansion gears and all augmented for their 20 jobs, that's just not fair because I can never make my main job stand out.

Game should be all about choices, and if you're hardcore it should be about picking a path and excel it. There are thousands of careers I wanna do irl, but in the end I can only pick one, same as jobs, it's call "jobs", that means you should be only excel at one.

[Economizer]

It's just like rl

This isn't "real life" and shouldn't be a mirror of it.

We have a job system where you can change your abilities at a moment's notice. This isn't how real life works either.

This limitation is purely artificial, and to imply that Final Fantasy should try to mirror how life functions in this way is nonsensical.

And this is not the first time SE do this with storyline gears

Gear is widely different, and even so there is no gear selection choice that comes close to this merit choice. Not even remotely close.

Even picking up Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic weapons - which very much so lock you down to your choice unless you can muster the considerable resources to get another - are just items. You can still get another one if you pay the cost though.

that's just not fair because I can never make my main job stand out

You want to make your job stand out? Play better at it.

I will admit that I'm not always the best at gearing the job I like to play most, but even when I play with other people who are better geared then I am, I play better at my job.

In fact, this is the closest thing to a real life aspect you should have in Final Fantasy - player skill. If people can only be good at so many things, then they will naturally have one job they are better at playing then others. Since this is outside of the game code already, there is no need to implement it into the game code.

[Afania]

This isn't "real life" and shouldn't be a mirror of it.

We have a job system where you can change your abilities at a moment's notice. This isn't how real life works either.

Not much different. If I pick up a pencil, I can become an artist and draw stuff, if I go sit in front of a piano, I can become a pianoist as well. But I'm not going to draw better or play better instrument than professionals, the ones who spend their entire life doing it.

MMORPG is based on community, so it wouldn't be too far off from rl either. Most of the MMORPG I played, although it's locked at one class, you get to choose different skill set/talent to master as well, it's same concept. You can play 20 jobs, but eventually only a few will stand out. You're not gonna cap all of them.

Even picking up Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic weapons - which very much so lock you down to your choice unless you can muster the considerable resources to get another - are just items. You can still get another one if you pay the cost though.

Sure, except ppl nowaday have empy for every job, ever since dyna update BST can solo a relic in 4 months, 2 months with a mule, pretty soon everyone will have relic for every job as well. When other ppl has same gear as you do, you won't stand out.

You want to make your job stand out? Play better at it.

Play better at what? Some job does have more complexity than others. But quite a lot of job is nothing more than pop JA then WS, swap gears for x situation and y situation. There are really nothing else to do research and most of the players that bother to care about their job can catch up in terms of playing skill by watching/doing research and they know what to do easily. The skill required in FFXI to play a job nicely isn't half as hard as playing piano to professional level. Someone may spend their entire life practicing playing piano and become a master and create new value for this instrument, you don't need to spend entire life to play FFXI to learn a job, this game is nothing but a bunch of codes, and many most effective ways to play it(which are mostly done by math) are already discussed on the forums/being discovered.

Gear is widely different, and even so there is no gear selection choice that comes close to this merit choice. Not even remotely close.

It's exactly the opposite, many add-on gears provide bigger boost to their respective jobs, while new merit WS are mostly not game breaking. Most of the merit WS are only on par, or subpar to empy/relic WS unless SE change it after next update. Even if they're on par with empy/relic WS the aftermath from empyrean weapon can easily catch up. You won't be gimp without merit WS at all, you can still go grind an empy, spam empy WS and keep ODD up, and still able to perform decently. You're able to pick 3 merit WS, even if you have 20 job leveled, you can still pick better merit WSs and do empy for those without merit WS. From what I've heard Katana/Scythe/h2h aren't so good, rest are replaceable with relic/empy WS for sure, you're not sacrificing too much performance of your jobs by limiting to 3.

[Economizer]

Play better at what? Some job does have more complexity than others. But quite a lot of job is nothing more than pop JA then WS, swap gears for x situation and y situation. There are really nothing else to do research and most of the players that bother to care about their job can catch up in terms of playing skill by watching/doing research and they know what to do easily. The skill required in FFXI to play a job nicely isn't half as hard as playing piano to professional level. Someone may spend their entire life practicing playing piano and become a master and create new value for this instrument, you don't need to spend entire life to play FFXI to learn a job, this game is nothing but a bunch of codes, and many most effective ways to play it(which are mostly done by math) are already discussed on the forums/being discovered.

If you really believe this, then you are doomed to be a little "cookie cutter" for the rest of your FFXI career.

It is irrelevant on whether playing a job takes more or less skill then playing the piano, it still takes a set of skills to do. Belittling those skills in favor of gear and merits will only make your playtime empty.

If you think that playing a job is just spamming abilities and spells, then you have no sense of pride in your job. You probably think that someone being able to get the same set of gear you have makes you less good at your job, and I think you'd be right - because your job is not Corsair or whatever FFXI construct you think it is anymore, your job is a metaphorical (er... I won't risk inflaming the overworked moderators to make a better point here) ego measuring contest. You will always lose at that contest for as long as you live as long as you play it, no matter what the arena you play it is in, because there is no way to truly win.

And as long as you do not hold the sense of magic in your class/job, the sense of pride from doing what you do, and the gratification from doing that job well regardless of what others do, and as long as you don't do it as best you can, you will never be unique.

You will always be the cookie cutter, because you foolishly think that some piece of hard to get gear gear or illogical merit limitation will make you any different. It doesn't. You can't be geared or merited to be any more unique from anyone else playing you job in the best gear loadout, but you can care about what you do. This will always make you stand out, even if you aren't the one wearing the best gear or using the best merit loadout for your job.

I could go on and on, but really, I can sum this up very easily. You should be able to have fun regardless of what other people are capable of, and we should never be pointlessly held back for bad reasons.

[CrAZYVIC]

I disagree, I think ppl in this game should have some form of specilization, and IMO merit WS is a good choice.

It's just like rl, you can't master everything in your career, if you want to master one thing you gonna sacrifice another. You can't be best musician and best lawyer+ best accoutant at once, that just doesn't work.

You get best by choosing a job, and take that path, and excel it. Those who spend most effort on this job should be the best.

Ever since Abyssea release there are no "main job" anymore, +2 is easy to get, empy is easy to get, every player has 1338 +2 jobs and empyreans, and all equally geared. If you want to make your main job stand out, it's really hard, because it doesn't take more than 3 months to grind best gears for every job you have. Even if you want to make your main job better than the rest by sacrificing your other jobs, you don't get the choice to.

And what's the point if your main job can't be better than others no matter how hard you try? You're forced to play and pimp other jobs, because if player A has 10 pimp jobs, player B only has 1, ppl would want player A in pt a lot more.

And this is not the first time SE do this with storyline gears, they've released 3 mini-expansion, which you can only pick 2 augments. I picked augment for my COR, so my BLU ended up being gimp cuz there are some other augments my BLU can benefit a lot, but I don't really care. It's my choice, I want to pimp this job and willing to sacrific other job for it. If there's another player who picked the augment for other jobs, that's totally fine. But I certainly don't want to see everyone owning 20 of mini-expansion gears and all augmented for their 20 jobs, that's just not fair because I can never make my main job stand out.

Game should be all about choices, and if you're hardcore it should be about picking a path and excel it. There are thousands of careers I wanna do irl, but in the end I can only pick one, same as jobs, it's call "jobs", that means you should be only excel at one.

There "Career players" This players have 7 years using a job, trying pimp in gear and skills their job. They Read, math and parse real events for a great perfomance improvement.

There people very well informed, people spend several hours reading how gear a new job, building macros, doing several maths and parsing his new job.

In my personal exp any player informed can master "All jobs he want" No matter what. If this person have time for gear that in the right way, and do all the necesary yes a new job can be mastered.

Even if everyone can master anyjob and be a pimp expert player, always will be a diference vs a True Love and career person using a job.

The Career player will expend 95% their time pimping 1 job, will give these job 240 Spaces and will keep practicing and training for be the number one using his favorite job this is what make the diference vs a "Good informed player" vs a elite Career people.

A good informed player Cant give 240 espaces for only 1 job
A good informed player cant spend 95% of their time pimping a job
A good informed player dont have 7 years using a job 95% of time.

I can Qoute 2 "Elite Career thiefs"

1.- Is Melphina from Fenrir
2.- Is Banalaty


This persons are "ELITE Career players" The diference is notable when you see this persons play. Not is like see a Pimp Twastar thief or see a informed player, is another feeling more deep is lke see a ELITE CApitan player on the battlefields, this people on their jobs really will surprise everyone.

In conclusion everyone can "master" anyjob with efforts and knowedge but a few people will really be a Elite Outstanding player.

A elite player will outparse the 95% The playerbase with "Their favorite jobs No matter if this jobs are inferior jobs", this person will be always 79/80 and with a lot of gear varations in mog house, this kind of players are totaly elite masters in their jobs. Yes even a uKovansara warrior will fear this kind of players if you take they in "Light mode in the parses you will end raped for a big margin"

So i respect this kind of players because they use their jobs in a way exceptional even for see their true potential you need as minimiun be a master in the job they use just for UNDERSTAND whats going in there.

Not is only do maths in a imaginary paralel universe
Not is only parse like a idiot and ask the devil for help for a win a parse
Not is only read and set a Tp set and ws set there a LOT of more things necesary for be a Elite player.

[Afania]

Further, this especially punishes niche weapon skills and weapons, especially on unpopular jobs. You basically have to start choosing between weapons altogether, rather then letting the situation let you choose your job then your weapon. Like to solo on one class that is widely different from the ones you party with? Too bad because you can't get the WS you want without being gimp in parties!

All of this is a terrible price to pay for an artificial limitation on being able to enjoy all of the new content to its fullest. Players will already be paying one million merit points per weapon skill, which while this may be a fair price, is a steep one. But it is not as steep as the price of gimping your ability to get into parties and events with jobs you've leveled and geared just because you couldn't justify making that job's weapon skill your third weapon skill over another. [/LIST]

The moment you clicked the job change botton you're already not playing your job to fullest potential. You can only play a job to fullest potential when you use it in unfavored situations, since you'd have to find a way to solve the problem and overcome weakness by trying different aspect that it's weak to. If everyone always job change because another job is more useful than this situation, you'll never be able to push your current job further.

And even if you have 20 WS unlocked and all well geared, you still won't be able to get into party and events on certain job anyways. Because certain events always favors certain job, instead of welcomes all job. Those who has NIN leveled probably uses NIN 99.9% of time in Abby, and never get a chance to play SMN even if his SMN has a Mythic. It's all the same, except if he really excel at SMN maybe he'll have more chance to use SMN in a pt.

[Arcon]

All merit group combo caps should be lifted.

[Dragoy]

I always did like the fact that I can level up all jobs on one character, instead of having to create several to do that.

I always disliked the fact that merits force you to choose things like this. I do understand the reasoning on being good at just one, and that you can indeed lower your merits and make changes. Only problem with that is the fact that you need to re-acquire them, and that's when it goes into a "bit too much" in my opinion.

That especially with the old, 10 Merit Point at once limit.
Even if you only got like half of them back to re-assign, I think it would be more OK.

But that's another subject really. Something like weapon skills becoming the same... I understand the reasoning, and sort of agree with it (a little), but no, I can't say I like it. Not that it matters... really... just saying... >.>;


Just some thoughts~