Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation

[cidbahamut]

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

That's a terrible analogy and the complaint you outline is one of job design, not one of gear availability. Get over it and focus your vindictiveness more constructively.

[Greatguardian]

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

Oh. So bringing Dancer up from broken, useless pile of crap to respectable DD is bad because it shares traits that already work well on the other dagger-wielding job? That's astounding.

There's a whole can of worms one could open by saying "Don't fix what ain't broke", because we both know that Thief could be in a better place right now, but I don't see anything wrong with SE fixing the most terrible, languishing jobs first. Puppetmaster is in the middle of a huge AI/automaton overhaul, too. Corsair received a massive XI Roll buff, and Miser's/Tacticians/Wildfire gave it a legitimate reason to exist next to Bard. Blue mage received HNM spells, and Scholar is being reworked.

Sure, the bottom of the pyramid may be closer to the top now, but that's only because they've been overhauled while the top of the pyramid hasn't. I have little doubt that Thief will receive the love it needs. Its need simply isn't as great as the famously defunct jobs that the Devs are working with right now.

Inb4 Mellowy and/or no one cares about Summoner people.

[Suirieko]

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

It shouldn't even be a problem to begin with, there shouldn't even be a line to begin with. To Date. Dancer and Scholar, for the most part, can't even touch most of the major gears because they are the latest two jobs. SE, originally said that "they're planning for good gears for Dancers and Scholars." There was hardly anything outside of AF, Relic set, and Empyrean armor set (and for the most part, are still good stuff, I won't deny this). Only Abyssea gears did this actually change significantly. IE: Gears like movement speed for DNC and Loki's body, etc.

They can't equip any of the Abjuration set. They can't equip any of the salvage set. They can't equip any of the homam/nashira set. It's not a huge deal now because most of the said gears have already been replaced for the most part, but then what happens when those set gets upgraded, and they're actually useful. Oops. Dancer and Scholar gets screwed again.

There's nothing unfair about them getting those set just because those jobs came out after the said gear sets were released. This is the same with relic. They should've been added to relics long time ago, if you ask me, and they need to fix this.

There are no "freebies" or "free hand outs" or anything unfair, just because some joe blow has mandau for his THF and dinged into Dancer and can use Mandau. I still fail to see how this is unfair. He already worked hard for the weapon, why should he have to work more just so he can use it on Dancer? This is the same for all five of the new jobs.

The argument is: All 20 jobs have access to Mythics, all 20 jobs have access to Empyrean. Why can't all 20 jobs have access to relics. (without making new relic weapons just because those 5 jobs are "too new" for relics.)

Only one person complained about DNC getting Mandau, once, and it was over ten pages ago. No one else and not even that person has argued about "DNC vs. THF". Your statement is completely unjustified. There was no "DNC vs THF" arguing in here (especially not in the quoted post), but this statement, ironically, spawned it all. Now I feel like I should comment too, just to make some things clear. Please note that despite my stance on this issue, I do feel strongly that DNC should be added to Mandau, just like I believe all new jobs should be added to their respective main weapons.

Well this isn't the first thread and whenever this thread gets around, there's always an argument that Dancers have "stolen enough" from THF, and that DNC having Mandau would somehow "kill THF". All in all it's really a stupid argument, considering that THF and DNC are still a different beast with or without Mandau.

Unless I'm confusing it with something else, I think Assassin was actually added after the level cap was raised to 75. I think it came before Tier 2 merits though, so it does depend how much you care about Assassin's Charge.

Pretty sure Assassin came out in 2005, and made Trick attack as strong as Sneak Attack. To be honest, for the long time, I was content with how THF was and felt that there wasn't any necessary changes. Accomplice and Collaboration makes it even easier to manage hate, and allows mages to have better chance to survive due to hate generation.

Also, let's not forget that SE did boosted the higher end dagger base damage in the past. (I think it was 2006 when the did this?)

The only thing that did bug me was the fact that they were giving Treasure Hunters abilities to other classes, but it's really kind of moot because even with the diminishing return, people will always go to THF for stronger TH boost as opposed to RNG, or subjob with /THF.

As I said before, there was no THF vs. DNC arguing initially, people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there. Now everyone is talking against no one. There is literally no issue here. Just let it drop and go back on topic.

Correct. It's not an issue because A) People having Mandau will always be in a minority, because it is a difficult weapon to get. B) IT shouldn't even matter because THF and DNC are both primary dagger users, and therefore, should have no problem with using Mandau. Hell it makes more sense to me for THF and DNC to use Mandau than BRD and RDM.

[Kimble]

What exactly did they give to dnc that thf have been asking for?

[Arcon]

What exactly did they give to dnc that thf have been asking for?

Forced critical hit (Sneak Attack), forced triple attack (Assassin's Charge), Subtle Blow bonus, Accuracy Bonus, high Evasion Bonus, higher tiers of Dual Wield, which allows DNC subs other than NIN to DD, while THF still has to use it for nothing else but increasing a trait they already have themselves. I probably missed something.

Edit:

That's a terrible analogy and the complaint you outline is one of job design, not one of gear availability. Get over it and focus your vindictiveness more constructively.

He didn't complain, he just explained why THFs feel as they do, and he's right. And he's also right about why THF feel that way about Mandau, because it's one of the extremely few edges THF has over DNC. Not that it changes anything about the job design, but that's how it is.

[Kimble]

Forced critical hit (Sneak Attack), forced triple attack (Assassin's Charge), Subtle Blow bonus, Accuracy Bonus, high Evasion Bonus, higher tiers of Dual Wield, which allows DNC subs other than NIN to DD, while THF still has to use it for nothing else but increasing a trait they already have themselves. I probably missed something.

So, you mean they gave things to DNC that THF already had, not, they give things to DNC that THFs have been asking for.

THF has higher Evasion then DNC still. DNCs TA is nothing to really talk about and a THF can use SA more then a DNC can. (Granted DNC can do it from the front, THF can as well with Bully)

[Arcon]

So, you mean they gave things to DNC that THF already had, not, they give things to DNC that THFs have been asking for.

No, I meant both. Only Sneak Attack, Triple Attack and Evasion Bonus were things THF already had. The rest was stuff THF wanted (Accuracy Bonus, Subtle Blow, Dual Wield).

[Juri_Licious]

Pretty much the arguments in this thread have been rather lame and irrelevant.

"These jobs wern't out at the time so they must not be able to use the weapon, make new weapons for them!"

This isn't Mythic weapons, multiple jobs can already use the weapons. What game have you ever played when adding new classes these new classes couldn't use a weapon simply cause they were a new class? It didn't work this way in Phantasy Star games another Japanese MMO.

Relic weapons have always been for multiple jobs, so don't act like they're Mythic weapons. We don't need job specific Relics when Mythics handle this.

"THF is absolute dog pile crap, why do I play this game when DNC is my mortal enemy and i'm absolutely jealous, stunned yet appalled that my inferior THF is the worst thing in this game and does 0 damage and doesn't get invited over DNC! Don't give them Mandau, i'll feel like I heal the enemies every time I swing!"

This is absurd on so many levels. You are very biased when it comes to this because you have no objection when it comes to other jobs using Relic weapons but DNC using the Mandau is the most horrible thing in the world.

Once again, THF gets invited to parties all the time. You stated before they don't, if you really think THF doesn't get invited to parties than you must not actually be playing the game at all and you bought your account with the Mandau on it. Maybe that's why you don't put your actual character name on the forums who knows?

Giving DNC the Mandau isn't going to change how THF gets into parties. No one's going to say "SOEGJOSEJG DNC MANDAU! GET DA FAWK OUTTA HERE THIEF!" Just not going to happen. This won't change anything just make players a little more happy and you bitter for no apparent reason.

[Kitkat]

As person who does have Mandau, but isn't really an avid user of Dnc I can't see how this is overly broken. Does it seem unfair? Only about as unfair as Dnc using Twashtar at this point.

It's a great Evisceration weapon and the +att is welcomed in most cases, but the only reason to offhand it is the obvious Dmg/Delay and only if you have a better mainhand. This comes down to situational use however if you have both relic and emp daggers. Ideal situation Twashtar is better main, unideal mandau is admittedly better since you'll still get 3x dmg proc without needing the ws and it is better for evis main-hand.

I wouldn't mind seeing other jobs added to pre-existing weapons also, but I can see where people that have been latched to the job that relic was originally built for have a betrayed sense of injustice being done to them. Then again I look at some of the pre-existing jobs that can use side relic weapons and I wonder just what is so wrong about letting other jobs that have similar rated weapon skill ranks be able to also use the weapon (aka brd and rdm are on mandau, rdm is on excalibur, war is on gsword yet have lower than A- rank). Personally, I'd rather see an update that made using it offhand still retained at least the +att or +acc of relic at the very least....but in the case of Excalibur I can see why additional effects in offhand would still be a no-go.

[Arcon]

I feel stupid responding, but I feel I have to do it to save an actually useful thread from being locked. This is a non-issue. I wish people would stop bringing it up.

Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

Only one person complained about DNC getting Mandau, once, and it was over ten pages ago. No one else and not even that person has argued about "DNC vs. THF". Your statement is completely unjustified. There was no "DNC vs THF" arguing in here (especially not in the quoted post), but this statement, ironically, spawned it all. Now I feel like I should comment too, just to make some things clear. Please note that despite my stance on this issue, I do feel strongly that DNC should be added to Mandau, just like I believe all new jobs should be added to their respective main weapons.

I have little doubt that Thief will receive the love it needs.

I kinda hate arguing about this further, since I agree with you. It's only that this statement, I just know, will upset many THFs. Because the last good thing THF has gotten since Sneak Attack was Bully, which, if you look at it, is a very minor damage boost when soloing only. Yet when they got it (in its current form) THFs were ecstatic, because it was the only kind of loving they got in the better part of a decade. So it'll take quite a leap of faith for THFs to believe that the job will receive the love it needs, because they've been shown the opposite for years, despite their constant begging.

THF has many completely objective shortcomings compared to DNC, and the only reason it gets invited to stuff is because it's still a somewhat decent evasion tank and of course for TH. The last part, however, was again a slap in THF's face because SE is giving TH abilities away to other jobs. RNG and BST have both the ability to apply TH3 on a mob (RNG can even use the augmented Tarutaru Sash, which THF can't), and to make matters worse yet, player testing has shown that TH has extremely diminishing returns after TH2. That's why you'll see so many BST soloing their relics in a few months and that's why people are bring a /THF mule instead of a THF if they can't afford to spare the slot in their party (I can't count how many WHM/THFs mule I've seen in Abyssea, Dynamis, sea and sky). And as a final bitch slap, TH is almost completely useless in Voidwatch, the only place with current content.

Having said that, yes, THF does still get invited, even without Mandau. But that's usually due to the following reasons: a) they can spare a spot and like the additional TH, no matter how little it does, b) they don't know how little it actually does (many fall into this category, people still think TH10 actually does something over TH7), c) the player doesn't have any other viable jobs, or d) they're trying an evasion tank strategy. Since c) isn't really an argument for THF, and a) and b) involve a broken or misunderstood game mechanic and don't require a THF so much as its trait, d) is the only thing THF is actually useful for, and the number of mobs that are evasion tanked is getting smaller and smaller.

I hate even having to say that, because it's been said over and over again by the entire THF community, and it doesn't belong in here either, but these are just the facts and dispute some claims other people have made recently. As I said before, there was no THF vs. DNC arguing initially, people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there. Now everyone is talking against no one. There is literally no issue here. Just let it drop and go back on topic.