[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

[Mahoro]

H2H procs? Only thing I can imagine. It's not often that a pup frame proc appears in VW.

Ya, PUP/MNK to cover the majority of H2H WS triggers while still having all the PUP JA and Automaton WS's covered.

[Greatguardian]

Ya, PUP/MNK to cover the majority of H2H WS triggers while still having all the PUP JA and Automaton WS's covered.

They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

PUP as a "Proc" job is a complete waste of space in Voidwatch, which is why I'm wondering what in the world your reasoning is for using them over a Monk, which has every H2H WS, the vast majority of Staff/Club WS, and is a stronger DD.

Edit: Also,

Not sure what you mean. The post to which I was responding talked about having a PUP over a SCH. I merely said in my ideal alliance I'd have both.

Yes. And I said, "Why would you bring a PUP at all if you have a Monk?" You replied with, "Well, I wouldn't bring a Monk."

So I'd like to hear why you would bring a PUP instead of a MNK. Alliance spots are not infinite. If you're wasting a spot on PUP, then there's some other job with significantly more procs or more utility that isn't being used.

[Mahoro]

They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

PUP as a "Proc" job is a complete waste of space in Voidwatch, which is why I'm wondering what in the world your reasoning is for using them over a Monk, which has every H2H WS, the vast majority of Staff/Club WS, and is a stronger DD.

Edit: Also,

Yes. And I said, "Why would you bring a PUP at all if you have a Monk?" You replied with, "Well, I wouldn't bring a Monk."

So I'd like to hear why you would bring a PUP instead of a MNK. Alliance spots are not infinite. If you're wasting a spot on PUP, then there's some other job with significantly more procs or more utility that isn't being used.

I know they're missing Asuran Fists, I said "majority" in my original post....

I know the PUP has issues with certain WS. DRG has the same issues with its wyvern. I never said the procs would be easy to carry out. However, what I CAN say with certainty is that your odds of proccing a Wyvern or Automaton proc WITHOUT some DRG or PUP in alliance is 0%.

Yes, I know alliance spots are not infinite. I was suggesting an ideal setup to cover as many procs as possible. Obviously, even this setup is missing some procs, and would obviously have to be adjusted based on the mob being fought:

PLD, NIN, BRD, WHM, RDM, SMN
WAR, PUP/MNK, DRG, COR, DRK, WHM
BLM, DNC, BLU, RNG, THF, SCH

[Greatguardian]

DRG has EX lance WS and a heap of unique JAs, and is one of the game's strongest DDs. PUP can be completely eclipsed by MNK and functions as an average DD. There is no comparison between the two.

I'd also take issue with your ideal alliance, personally =/. That's a pretty optimistic setup.

[Mahoro]

DRG has EX lance WS and a heap of unique JAs, and is one of the game's strongest DDs. PUP can be completely eclipsed by MNK and functions as an average DD. There is no comparison between the two.

I'd also take issue with your ideal alliance, personally =/. That's a pretty optimistic setup.

You are introducing a factor into the analysis which I was intentionally not using: DD strength. Obviously, the setup I proposed above would not be used in some of the new fights (Kaggen, Pil, Aello, Ildebrann etc). Instead, one would sacrifice some of the more obscure procs (PUP, BST, etc) for more of the same job, heavier DD, or more ranged DD.

[Greatguardian]

You are introducing a factor into the analysis which I was intentionally not using: DD strength. Obviously, the setup I proposed above would not be used in some of the new fights (Kaggen, Pil, Ildebrann etc). Instead, one would sacrifice some of the more obscure procs (PUP, BST, etc) for more of the same job or heavier DD.

Even taking DD power out of the equation, MNK has more procs than PUP unless you want your mages to be in melee range =/.

[Mahoro]

Even taking DD power out of the equation, MNK has more procs than PUP unless you want your mages to be in melee range =/.

I haven't counted the total number of procs each would have. If you have, great, I'm actually curious as to the final numbers. Of course, as you know, any such tabulation would have to take into account the PUP having access to certain Dagger and Club procs, as well as the total number of PUP JA and Automaton WS.

[Byrth]

You don't need to be able to proc every weakness that shows up. Let the percentage of weaknesses your alliance can hit be N%. Of the first 8 weaknesses, your alliance will be able to hit 8*N% Weaknesses. Because you hit 8*N% weaknesses, there will be 8*N% new weaknesses to hit and your odds of proccing them are N% again giving you a total of 8*N%^2 weaknesses from the second round. If you repeat this process out to infinity, you end up with 8*sum(N + N^2 + N^3 + N^4...) weaknesses when starting the fight with an N% proc rate.

This formula inverts across N=.5
10% proc rate = 1/9
20% proc rate = 2/8
30% proc rate = 3/7
40% proc rate = 2/3
50% proc rate = 1
60% proc rate = 3/2
70% proc rate = 7/3
80% proc rate = 8/2
90% proc rate = 9/1

Moral of the story is that a group that can proc 2/3 of the weaknesses (16 procs per fight average) is generally going to cap lights easily. You don't need to take jobs that cover a very small amount of procs like DNC and PUP. DNC has all of two JAs that can't be subbed. PUP is a monk with low attack/martial arts and a frustrating sidekick.

[Mizuharu]

They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. What?

Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

Uh.
Harlequin/Stormwaker
- Slapstick/Thunder Maneuver
- Knockout/Wind Maneuver
- Magic Morter/Light Maneuver

Sharpshot Frame
- Arcuballista/Fire Maneuver
- Daze/Thunder Maneuver
- Armor Piercer/Dark Maneuver
- Armor Shatterer/Wind Maneuver

Valoredge Frame
- Chimera Ripper/Fire Maneuver
- String Clipper+String Shredder/Thunder Maneuver
- Cannibal Blade/Dark Maneuver
- Bone Crusher/Light Maneuver

So yeah, the only real weapon skill you can't force an automaton to do is String Clipper since String Shredder and it share the same "deciding maneuver." Therefore, it is chosen over String Clipper should the automaton have the proper skill level. You can easily force an automaton to do a certain weapon skill. >.> And for TP gain you could get TP yourself then Tactical Switch or just set Heat Capacitor. (If the WS you want to force is fire based, Heat Capacitor has a 1:30 min recast timer. So you'll have plenty of a window before a fire maneuver would be erased.)

Shockingly enough, Puppetmaster is a job you have to have had experience playing/done enough research about it to actually understand how it works. You're gearing two "characters." Not one. You think all of that AI in the Automaton and there wouldn't be a way to force a certain weapon skill? lol... Actually, scratch that "lol." They still can't seem to put curing over -na spells. Hopefully that changes with this update.

[Mahoro]

You don't need to be able to proc every weakness that shows up. Let the percentage of weaknesses your alliance can hit be N%. Of the first 8 weaknesses, your alliance will be able to hit 8*N% Weaknesses. Because you hit 8*N% weaknesses, there will be 8*N% new weaknesses to hit and your odds of proccing them are N% again giving you a total of 8*N%^2 weaknesses from the second round. If you repeat this process out to infinity, you end up with 8*sum(N + N^2 + N^3 + N^4...) weaknesses when starting the fight with an N% proc rate.

This formula inverts across N=.5
10% proc rate = 1/9
20% proc rate = 2/8
30% proc rate = 3/7
40% proc rate = 2/3
50% proc rate = 1
60% proc rate = 3/2
70% proc rate = 7/3
80% proc rate = 8/2
90% proc rate = 9/1

Moral of the story is that a group that can proc 2/3 of the weaknesses (16 procs per fight average) is generally going to cap lights easily. You don't need to take jobs that cover a very small amount of procs like DNC and PUP. DNC has all of two JAs that can't be subbed. PUP is a monk with low attack/martial arts and a frustrating sidekick.

I do agree that a group doesn't have to proc every weakness thrown at it to do well at capping lights. The "ideal" setup is just that...an ideal. And it certainly wouldn't survive against a mob that takes a particular kind of setup (i.e., most of the new T3 mobs).

I don't know enough about PUP to know how frustrating its sidekick can be, but people like Mizu above can speak to that better than I can. I just know that well-geared, knowledgeable PUP's can do very well in a VW alliance and cover a great many procs. I'd still be interested in seeing the total number of procs a MNK has vs. a PUP (before factoring in subs), but I can't be arsed to put together the list at the moment.