[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

[Byrth]

You'd be wrong. PUP has no purpose in the game. You can use it to solo DC monsters, but what can't you use to solo DC monsters?

Voidwatch? One shade below totally worthless. Oh yay, a damage source that can occasionally proc stuff.
XPing? Not an event anymore. If you don't get all the xp you need just from doing other stuff, you're leveling a new job or doin' it wrong.
Dynamis? No JA procs worth talking about, and no TH.
Abyssea? Can't even proc well in Blunt, let alone magical WSs or magic.
Salvage? Anything + Anything can duo almost every zone. PUP has no particular advantages.
WoE? Puppet recast is too long to be relevant as a pet job. As a melee it has all the same problems as every other melee.

It's worthless. I don't know how I could possibly design an event where it's not worthless.

[Darkvalkyr]

I see nothing in OP about spirits beyond the last; why the sudden talk about Spirits?

[hiko]

I see nothing in OP about spirits beyond the last; why the sudden talk about Spirits?

really?

I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)




Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?

Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?

Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?

Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else)


I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.

totally nothing about spirits

[Mizuharu]

Voidwatch? One shade below totally worthless. Oh yay, a damage source that can occasionally proc stuff.

Isn't that the case with every job? >.> Well, granted you NEED at least one blm for procing. Three-ish for killing it. But the DDs are just there to proc also along with damage. And PUP can still proc some while doing damage (ya know, like a RNG is there to do damage and then Archery WSs when it pops up.(Leave Marksmanship to the COR. And you will have a COR. Regain rolls are a must for WS procing. /rant))
The Automaton BLM frame gets higher numbers per nuke than a BLM(without a set proc.) And Deactivate wipes the Automaton off the hate list completely. I think it's a good bonus source of hateless damage.

XPing? Not an event anymore. If you don't get all the xp you need just from doing other stuff, you're leveling a new job or doin' it wrong.

Agreed.

Dynamis? No JA procs worth talking about, and no TH.

Do what everyone else does for JA procs; sub DNC.

Abyssea? Can't even proc well in Blunt, let alone magical WSs or magic.

While it's true PUP can't proc magic, a PUP/WAR can do all h2h (save for Asuran Fists), all club (save for Hexa/Black Halo), and (with some staff merits + head gear) can do

Red Lotus Blade (Feast of Swords sword for all jobs)
Seraph Blade (^)
Seraph Strike
Earth Crusher
Sunburst
Raiden Thrust (Halloween Polearm)
Energy Drain
Cyclone

Only missing Jinpu/Koki, Ei, Shadow of Death, and Freezebite.

Salvage? Anything + Anything can duo almost every zone. PUP has no particular advantages.

While anything + rdm/whm/sch can duo "almost" everything, you need a third person anyway to even get access in. PUP/NIN with a proper eva set up is a hell of an evasion tank. And the automaton adds another source of damage.

WoE? Puppet recast is too long to be relevant as a pet job. As a melee it has all the same problems as every other melee.

Again, while it is a 1min wait time, it's the same time cooldown as a SMN's blood pacts (unless they actually use Blood Pact - gear like they're SUPPOSE TO. (I cry for the SMNs now a days fulltiming the same gear ; ; )) PUP does decent in most fluxes. I get about ~9k just Deploy/Deactivate and subbing sch to cure people.

It's worthless. I don't know how I could possibly design an event where it's not worthless.

It's only as worthless as the player wants it to be. Find some career pups instead of all the abyssea burn ones.

[Greatguardian]

I have a well-geared, career PUP in my Voidwatch shell. I've known him for half a decade, cool guy.

He comes on his recently Abyssea-burned SCH to all of our runs because PUP is pretty much useless. It's straight up impossible to force the puppet to use really weak weaponskills for procs, so it's far worse in practice than it is on paper. It can't handle every H2H proc, and the rest of its weapons are pretty fail tier, so we're better off just bringing a Mnk to cover everything PUP can do and then some.

I don't think you realize that doing damage is a secondary, hell even tertiary concern these days. PUP can certainly DD with the rest of the big boys, no one's denying that. Hell, so can Dragoon in Abyssea. That doesn't make Dragoon worth a crap in Abyssea. That simply doesn't make it useful when the focus of the game has shifted away from ZERGZERGZERGZERGZERG REPEAT.

Ironically, PUP as it is now would have been a lot more useful 4 years ago.

[Mizuharu]

I have a well-geared, career PUP in my Voidwatch shell. I've known him for half a decade, cool guy.

He comes on his recently Abyssea-burned SCH to all of our runs because PUP is pretty much useless. It's straight up impossible to force the puppet to use really weak weaponskills for procs, so it's far worse in practice than it is on paper. It can't handle every H2H proc, and the rest of its weapons are pretty fail tier, so we're better off just bringing a Mnk to cover everything PUP can do and then some.

I don't think you realize that doing damage is a secondary, hell even tertiary concern these days. PUP can certainly DD with the rest of the big boys, no one's denying that. Hell, so can Dragoon in Abyssea. That doesn't make Dragoon worth a crap in Abyssea. That simply doesn't make it useful when the focus of the game has shifted away from ZERGZERGZERGZERGZERG REPEAT.

Ironically, PUP as it is now would have been a lot more useful 4 years ago.

DRG's a good DD too outside :< All my favorite jobs keep getting shot down qq...

But yeah I have SCH too... Thankfully, we recently got a second SCH so I get to drg or pup more often lol

[Byrth]

Abyssea : You named all the magic WSs that almost every job /WAR can do. That doesn't make PUP a good Abyssea proc job, it makes WAR a good Abyssea proc sub. Also, PUP/WAR can't do Cyclone and Energy Drain.

Voidwatch: Similarly, being able to occasionally rival the damage of a BLM nuke (hint: BLMs aren't there for damage and aren't competitive with DDs) doesn't make it a good Voidwatch job. I'd put PUP as a proccer about on the usefulness level of DNC as a proccer.

Salvage: You don't need an Evasion build for Salvage. At 95, you should cap evade rate in your TP gear thanks to traits. I go DNC/THF to Salvage for TH because my evade rate is perma capped and Utsu isn't doing much for me.

Dynamis: Being able to proc or have TH doesn't make you able to proc with TH, and means there are many jobs better suited to it than PUP.

Again, it's not like PUP can't do any of the things I named... it's just that they're not a good choice if you have other options. Abyssea xp rates have made it so almost everyone has other options.

[Malamasala]

I really think Automatons needed the love more than Spirits..

The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

Think like this. You got a math problem saying 3 + 5 = ?. Next math problem is 5 + 3 = ?.

That is your automaton and spirit code. Very similar, but not exactly the same. SE just solved 3 + 5 = 8. I suggest they solve 5 + 3 = ? while they worked out the solution to 3 + 5.


It is only logical and easy. I don't claim that it is right or deserved.

Yet another comparison. Your son is mowing the lawn. He seems to finish very fast so you ask him if he really did cut all of it. His reply is "I only did half, because it needed it more than the other half".

Again, it would have been easiest to just mow the whole lawn at once. Splitting it up so you mow half on tuesdays and half on fridays will just make it more annoying to do.


As you see, no denying PUP needs it more. Just saying that they could as well finish all AI adjustments in the same batch.

[Camiie]

I love how people didn't read the OP and only the one-liner insult responses and treated them as though they actually referred to the entirety of the content of the OP. If you aren't going to read why are you on a forum again?

[Soranika]

Spirits don't define or even represent the SMN ability though Mala.... the avatars do.