[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

[Malamasala]

I really think Automatons needed the love more than Spirits..

The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

Think like this. You got a math problem saying 3 + 5 = ?. Next math problem is 5 + 3 = ?.

That is your automaton and spirit code. Very similar, but not exactly the same. SE just solved 3 + 5 = 8. I suggest they solve 5 + 3 = ? while they worked out the solution to 3 + 5.


It is only logical and easy. I don't claim that it is right or deserved.

Yet another comparison. Your son is mowing the lawn. He seems to finish very fast so you ask him if he really did cut all of it. His reply is "I only did half, because it needed it more than the other half".

Again, it would have been easiest to just mow the whole lawn at once. Splitting it up so you mow half on tuesdays and half on fridays will just make it more annoying to do.


As you see, no denying PUP needs it more. Just saying that they could as well finish all AI adjustments in the same batch.

[SpankWustler]

The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

Even if Spirits and Puppets still have comparable code after all the changes that have been made to puppets over time, there's one more thing to consider when looking for a solution. Do elemental spirits have the same purpose as the mage puppets?

Puppetmasters use their Black Mage puppets for magic damage, and if the White Mage puppet doesn't suck after the coming update, for healing. This works because there's lots of junk they can throw on their animate tea kettles to make the little bros perform less horribly.

Spirits are currently used to try for Elemental Siphon or maybe magical procs in Abyssea and Voidwatch if a bro or bro-ette is desperate. Summoner has other options for magic damage and healing, options which the Summoner can actually control. Plus, there's very little that could affect a Spirit's magical damage beyond a few Pet: Magic AttacK Bonus pieces, so how much magic damage could a "naked" Spirit actually do even if it did cast in a competent manner?

This makes me wonder what the spirits should do better if they are ever improved. If Spirits were made similarly competent to the Black Mage and White Mage puppets, how much would it really add to summoner? If Spirits were made better at casting lots of random spells until something makes a !! pop up, how would that work out? If Spirits were given no perpetuation cost to make Elemental Siphon return a little more MP, would there by any point?

And the most important question of all. Why did I delay a much needed trip to the bathroom to type this post?

[Moink]

A Spirit is nowhere near the level of importance to a SMN as an Automaton is to a PUP... If you were to have made a better complaint such as "When are the avatars getting new Blood Pact Rages?" instead of standing there and crying "I want my Spirits to do more and through out more powerful nukes and be just awwwwwesome" i would've maybe liked this thread...

I need to ask this because now this bothers me... are you really one of those Summoners who stands there with her Spirit out instead of an Avatar draining your MP pool in hopes that your spirit does some wicked spell like Flare II or Firaja or Fire V?

[Byrth]

Before I read this thread, I wouldn't have believe anyone was angry that PUP is finally getting some attention. Turns out I would have been wrong.

Summoner has a purpose and a use right now. PUP has no use. Stop whining.

[Alhanelem]

Before I read this thread, I wouldn't have believe anyone was angry that PUP is finally getting some attention. Turns out I would have been wrong.

Summoner has a purpose and a use right now. PUP has no use. Stop whining.

I would strongly disagree that "PUP has no use" right now, though I would agree if it was changed to "No use that especially stands out in a crowd." It's not that PUP is "bad", it's that nothing it does is particularly special except maybe in a solo context.

That being said, the changes in this update make the things that a lot of people WANT to do with pup but cant much more doable than before. e.g. being able to take a supportive role without getting screwed pver on any monster that inflicts any curable status effect. Just making the AI a lot less fail is a miracle in itself as far as making PUP more useable.

[Soranika]

If it's one thing I would like the devs hear from me, it would be please don't listen to just one SMN out of many want. Not all of us have this convoluted ideal that spirits should be anything than what they are currently.

[SpankWustler]

As I began reading this topic, five minutes younger and more naive than I am at present, it amazed me that Mellowy wasn't talking about Spirits again. Sure, she's complaining about Summoner for the hundred-thousandth time, but it's not like there aren't things to complain about. I thought this might mark a new trend in Mellowy's complaints about Summoner...

A few paragraphs later, the illusion is shattered as Mellowy begins talking about Spirits again. Thanks for reminding us all that the sun is still in the sky and the dead are not yet walking the earth, Mellowy.

[Mizuharu]

You are seriously complaining about Spirits? Here, let me lay down what use they have.

Buffs (I've often used a LightSpirit right before a fight for the pro/shell if I were solo)
Elemental Siphon
Aggro and need something to get attention (since spirits cast faster than avatars)

That's it. Automatons have been BROKEN for 5 years now. FIVE. YEARS.
-The WHM/RDM frames are FINALLY getting some enhancing spells.
-RDM hasn't been able to cast T4 spells since the level 80 cap was released.
-WHM frame would always cast the highest tier cure despite MP cost/if it was called for.
-WHM frame would always cast -na spells over Cure (which they still do, but...)
-All mage frames would cast one spell then have to wait ~23 secs depending on frame/head mixture.
-BLM frame would only cast Aspir when MP hit 75%.
-Shock Absorber attachment was a constant 100HP Stoneskin; useless when everything in abyssea hits for 200+ as VT/IT.
-Eraser would remove ALL maneuvers, but would only remove status effects equal to the number of Light Maneuvers lost.
-Heatsink would only apply to Fire Maneuvers (helpful for RNG/Melee frame. Useless for mage frames.)
-Even with Analyzer equipped, the Automaton's Shield Bash would only gain an enhancement if the mob used the TP move already. (If it used another TP move different from the previous one, the "memory" on Analyzer would reset.)
-RNG Frame Automaton's ranged attacks are calculated as Throwing; the closer the automaton is, the more damage it does and the more likely it will take damage. Further away, it is safer but does less damage.

Don't say "Are PUPs the only loved ones" like we get something every update. This has been LONG overdue.

[Soranika]

Shouldn't elemental spirits be more compared to the use of monsters that BST's charm than that of automatons anyway?

[Ophannus]

Spirits don't need to be relevant, they were basically placeholders until RoZ was added and the Avatars were introduced. They need about as much updating as low level BLU spells and nukes.