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  1. #41
    Player Soranika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyvian View Post
    A good healer has to be observing the screen, whether they realize it or not. At a split second glance a person would recognize a doom symbol over a player much faster than it could be typed. Perhaps the healer already knew that doom was coming, but sometimes people screw up and don't stand where they are supposed to be standing and also got doomed. Usually you notice that too, but sometimes too much happens at once.

    And lets face it, if your fighting a doom mob, the people tanking will have holy waters, but the guy thinking he's never pulling hate (like the THF or a RDM) never has them. Perhaps that's oversight on their part. If 3 people get doomed by apocalyptic ray because they all stood in a line because they failed to understand tauri mechanics, you'd see that onscreen faster than the chat log would load that it happened, and faster than all 3 people would type /p doom. In addition, you would see immediately on its removal as a visual indicator would dissapear. Cursna has an abysmal cast time and recast time, wasting casts because the person types that it came off too slow means you might not get to save a second person.
    -nod- Notice when I use cursna while subbing /whm. WHM/RDM on the other hand, plus fast cast gear, healing magic casting time reduction gear (mostly just Orison platoons +1/+2) and haste, cursna takes about 2 seconds to cast with 3-4 second recast time. WHM/SCH is slightly slower without the use of stratagems. I honestly wouldn't rely on any one other than WHM to reliably spam cursna to remove doom given the fact that healing magic effects success rate and even still there's only about at 25% chance at the most that it'll work.

    It's worth noting though that with this doom argument of "3 seconds doom left" is actually more like 9 seconds. The count downs work like ticks with anything so you have anywhere from 20-30 seconds to be cured, not literally 5-10 seconds. So even if a WHM is unobservant of any visual cue, there is "time" to cast. And like Kansagaku stated, chat filters... Dunno why they seem so hard to be used.
    (0)
    Main Job: SMN95 <Hvergelmir 85 obtained 9/10/11>
    Side Jobs: WHM95 DNC95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimikryo View Post
    If waiting 15 minutes is such an issue to you, I hope you never get stuck in public transport or in an elevator. You probably will go insane.

  2. #42
    Player autobot's Avatar
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    i like the idea and i have always wanted to be able to see what buffs/debuffs a party member/alliance member has.

    For people arguing about chat filters and being good at the job, that's just plain stupid. Just because a mob does a move doesn't mean the additional effect will stick. Ever had a spider do acid spray and not get poisoned? It doesn't say in the chat log whether or not you get poisoned it just displays the damage you have taken. The only way to know if that player was poisoned is to stare at the HP bar, and lets hope that player doesn't have regen on because then you need to do some quick math to tell if that person was poisoned. So while you are sitting there being a great whm, staring at the chat log and casting poisona to remove the poison your tank doesn't have, along comes a sickle slash and your tank is laying on the floor because you didn't cure your tank because you were casting an unnecessary spell. good job chat log.

    here is another situation for you people who are trying to rely on chat filters.

    You are fighting a doll, it does gravity field and now your whole party is slowed. in your party is you, the whm and a rdm. because you have chat filters on you can only see what the mob does to your party but not what your party is doing. so you cast erase (or haste) on party member 1, you cast on party member 2 and as you are casting on party member 2 the rdm is casting on party member 3. well since you cant see what spells are being cast and because you are focused on the chat log you missed the animation of the rdms spell so you then cast your spell on party member 3 only to see your spell has no effect. And as you were casting your spell party member 6 gets hit with blitzstrahl, is stunned and then killed because shadows were down and you were too busy to cure. then you blame the rdm for not curing, your party disbands, you get filled with rage, your wife comes in the room, you beat her mercilessly until you kill her, you go to jail and then you drop the soap in the shower only to become bubba's new love slave.

    and you can then argue that the wrong chat filters were on and you should be able to see a party member casting, but then your chat filter is too cluttered with all the /nin's casting shadows and the rdm casting and you casting and the mob doing what it does and all the damage and blah blah blah.

    Point is chat filters can help or hinder, and just because you focus at the chat log and HP bar doesn't mean you will see all the information happening to party members because its not all displayed.

    I hope you shower alone in jail.
    (0)

  3. #43
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    For this one I would just point to FFXIV (And WoW, and DDO, and many other MMOs), which briefly shows the status icon and name of effect visually on the players/monsters when they happen. This way you can look at the graphics and get basically the same information as looking at the log. It's not inherently better or worse than using the chat log, but it is good for those who prefer looking at the graphics over the text.

    Obviously that would be harder to implement in FFXI, though as I suggested, an existing system could be leveraged for that purpose. Visual indicators serve a simple purpose- it's just an alternative to the chat log. The reason I specifically went for the doom counter is because the game most likely doesn't show you the countdowns because it would spam the log too heavily. But using a visual indicator gets around this problem.
    (0)

  4. #44
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
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    Think your metaphor got a little out of hand, but it was amusing at least.

    First off, with doom (which is what this topic is about!), I can't think of an instance where you don't either see "[Player Name] is doomed" or "Additional Effect: [Player Name] is doomed." (I can't even remember where I've seen En-doom but I'm pretty sure I have). So if you're watching the chatlog with proper filters, then you're fine in that regard.

    Now using your own examples, and I'm afraid some of this is going to come off as "suck less", despite my well-meaning intentions. With almost any spider mob, its poison is usually not something to worry about. Generally I've seen Acid Spray be fairly low, to the point where it rarely affects the player much. And if you're getting taken out by Sickle Slash then your healers aren't doing their job properly; they should be topping you off before removing a fair number of status ailments, with exceptions being things like Doom, as there's no point in removing them from a person who's about to die and lose them anyway.

    As for dolls, the same thing applies. If you're worried about casting erase while your tank is getting massacred, then you're not doing it right, for lack of a better phrase. Yes it helps a NIN tank for his shadows being recast, but at the same time if said NIN is stunned and dying now's not really the time to help him cast his shadows faster. Cures should take a higher priority than most status ailments, with the latter being removed as time and situation allows. Hence, you should watch the HP bar before taking stock of what status ailments are in effect.

    Also, the whole wrong chat filters bit... even with people casting shadows and the other party members casting, it shouldn't clutter it much. You should still be able to see what happened to people. If not, a simple word from a melee (assuming they're not whiny and go PARA PARA PARA WHY ARE YOU PARALYNAING THE TANK FIRST) should indicate any you've missed. Or you can open the chatlog briefly to check, though that's conducive to getting distracted at a bad moment. Again, it's mostly that you need to pay attention if you're the healer.

    Last, I disagree with showing all of the status ailments at once simply because that would horribly clutter the screen. Someone commented that "why do we play the game if we only look at the chatlog/hp bar" but my answer to that is why do we play if we only look at a screen full of status ailment symbols? However, an interesting alternative is to use the linkshell/bazaar icon, and have it cycle through all status ailments on a person so that you can see what effects are in place while preventing unnecessary clutter.
    (0)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  5. #45
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    I can't think of an instance where you don't either see "[Player Name] is doomed" or "Additional Effect: [Player Name] is doomed."
    That's not what I'm talking about.

    Tahngarthor's doom counter is now down to 10.
    Tahngarthor's doom counter is now down to 9.
    Tahngarthor's doom counter is now down to 8....

    This is only visible to you, not anyone else. Yes, if you have the appropriate filters off, you can see everyone's "Soandso is Doomed" message. But it's impossible to see how much time is left on the counter unless you yourself are doomed.

    The reason this isn't displayed in the log is simple. If there is AoE doom, it would result in a massive flood of the chat log, as I exemplified earlier in the thread. Move the counter to a visual indicator and you get around the log flood problem.
    (0)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 10-26-2011 at 03:00 AM.

  6. #46
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    That's not what I'm talking about.

    Tahngarthor's doom counter is now down to 10.
    Tahngarthor's doom counter is now down to 9.
    Tahngarthor's doom counter is now down to 8....

    This is only visible to you, not anyone else. Yes, if you have the appropriate filters off, you can see everyone's "Soandso is Doomed" message. But it's impossible to see how much time is left on the counter unless you yourself are doomed.

    The reason this isn't displayed in the log is simple. If there is AoE doom, it would result in a massive flood of the chat log, as I exemplified earlier in the thread. Move the counter to a visual indicator and you get around the log flood problem.
    I... wasn't aware I was addressing you at this point. Forgive me for not understanding my own thought process and quoting you.

    Edit: My bad, I didn't see you ninja'd a post above my last one so I missed yours. Sorry! Sarcasm revoked.

    But to be fair, let me say this: what does it matter how much time you've got left? If a person's gonna Cursna you, you're either going to get it immediately until cured because you're a priority tank, or you're going to get it down the line if you're still alive and the more important people have received Cursna. All adding a visible timer is going to do is stress the healers because they're going to see "OH MY GOD EVERYONE'S GOING TO DIE IN 5 SECONDS I CAN'T GET THEM ALL." Having a visual indicator isn't going to have any real effect on the healing process except to create tension for the unfortunate mages.
    (2)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  7. #47
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    Actually it does have an effect on the process. It saves you from attempting to cast the spell if it would be a futile effort, allowing you to cast something else instead of wasting time casting the spell only to have it not go off.

    If it does you good to know how long you have to live (it does), then it does other people good as well.

    I would like visual indications of all status effects, personally. I simply started here because in this case the information is normally harder to come by.
    (0)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 10-26-2011 at 03:14 AM.

  8. #48
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
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    Many people don't know exactly how long it takes to cast Cursna. And with varying degrees of Fast Cast gear, you're going to see different cast times. Unless someone is showing a 1 for their Doom Countdown timer, I doubt that it'll stop people from trying to cast a Cursna. I can sort of see your point, but at the same time, it's important to focus on the tanks and such, and deal with the extra DD as you can. Cure them first, cursna them first, etc.
    (0)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  9. #49
    Player Soranika's Avatar
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    I've said all I could without repeating myself... I just really wonder if you're actually looking at this from perspective of being a competent WHM or healer in general and taken in account visual limitations of hardware (no, not lolps2limitations but how clear additional visual data would be at any given distance.)
    (0)
    Main Job: SMN95 <Hvergelmir 85 obtained 9/10/11>
    Side Jobs: WHM95 DNC95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimikryo View Post
    If waiting 15 minutes is such an issue to you, I hope you never get stuck in public transport or in an elevator. You probably will go insane.

  10. #50
    Player autobot's Avatar
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    While i understand that this thread is about the discussion of Doom, and as was said being able to see other debuffs on a party member, such as the green tint that was posted in an earlier post, this is still applied to doom. No matter the debuff being able to see it along within chat is a good thing.

    My post was just examples of how things can get missed or aren't seen due to too much going on or not enough information being displayed. And everyone in the game has experienced those "oh snap" moments where someone in the party goes from full hp to dead. Whether it be a nuke, a high damage move like sickle slash, or death scissors it happens. Anyone that has leveled the old school way has had their tank hit by one of those moves. And it doesn't matter how good the whm is, if a high damage move happens and a cure doesn't go off before the mobs next attack round, they die. Point being mobs can spam moves, if you are wasting time casting an unnecessary spell that can cause players to die.

    And regardless how competent one might be there are variables that would cause a person to miss something being displayed in the chat log. people could be fighting multiple mobs, for example, being one of the 2 whms in an exp party in abyssea-altepa. You cant tell me even with chat filters you can cure, remove debuffs, etc to 16 other people without missing something. And yes cure should be priority over anything else but you can sneeze and miss something that happens. what then? With no visual indicator how would u know unless you wasted time going back through the chat log and then u miss more.

    its a good idea period, i don't know why everyone has to complain about something that will benefit them.
    (0)

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