Where's our Relic...?

[Nightfyre]

VWNMs have ridiculous AGI scores, your dDEX will not be particularly high on them. Champion's Tonic facilitates a decent critrate, however. Attack+35 would be nice for BLU and it's worth noting that we don't always keep aftermath up due to spells (this would not be an issue with Excal, though it's also not really an issue in Voidwatch) but as mob difficulty increases your spell usage will decrease and so you're less likely to see it drop.

Tizona is difficult to math for since keeping aftermath up is of such importance, yet it also encourages using spells more often... very different playstyle, very different builds. It's also important that you be able to melee fulltime.

[saevel]

VWNMs have ridiculous AGI scores, your dDEX will not be particularly high on them. Champion's Tonic facilitates a decent critrate, however. Attack+35 would be nice for BLU and it's worth noting that we don't always keep aftermath up due to spells (this would not be an issue with Excal, though it's also not really an issue in Voidwatch) but as mob difficulty increases your spell usage will decrease and so you're less likely to see it drop.

Tizona is difficult to math for since keeping aftermath up is of such importance, yet it also encourages using spells more often... very different playstyle, very different builds. It's also important that you be able to melee fulltime.

No they don't. They have the regular stats as other NM's of their particular levels.

SE doesn't give it's monsters crazy stats, they don't eat food, wear gear or receive super buffs. Instead SE just gives them crazy powerful TP moves using 200~400 DMG weapons. +100~200 MAB, -25~50% PDT / MDT and so forth. This is how SE always does things, even inside Abyssea the NM's didn't have crazy high stats.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

loooooooooool no

Really adds to the topic.... Really!

(Realises this doesn't add much either, meh!)

[saevel]

Really adds to the topic.... Really!

(Realises this doesn't add much either, meh!)

I really don't see his point, I have him blocked so I don't have to deal with his immature rantings so this might just more of the usual.

Really all you need is 50 more Dex then the target has AGI, was difficult at 75 but since then SE has added tons of amazing gear with lots of DEX on it. I usually use the Dex+10 Attack+10 atmacite along with the STR+4 AGI+4 Acc+5 Regain+2 atmacite, puts me at 150 DEX during WS. Add on Bravers for +20 on each stat puts me at 170 DEX. Monsters would need an AGI of 120~130 to bring down the crit rate. And so far not a single VWNM has this, aside from possibly Kaggan.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sawtelle had ~176 dex and couldn't cap dDEX on a Part 1 Tier 1 VWNM, 140 dex isn't close to what's necessary. Small sample but out of 132 landed hits he only managed 9% crit rate from dDEX, which would put the weakest VWNM at around ~130 AGI.

[Kitkat]

He had mostly correct scaling, I'm not sure about Tizona compared to Excal as they can't be used on the same jobs. But Almace DESTROYS every other sword in the game, hands down no question asked. The actual scaling should be
Almace > Badelair > everything else.

The reason for this is CDC. CDC is one of the best WS's you can get for a few reasons. First being its 4.25 (2.25 + 2) worth of fTP without off hand, with off hand your talking 5.25 worth of fTP. Next the WSC is 60% DEX and it's a critical hit WS. As you stack DEX your dDEX goes up, once you pass +40 (40 higher then targets AGI) the next 10 DEX will give you 1% crit rate each, thus its easy to cap crit rate using a DEX WS.

Put all these together and CDC smash's anything vorpal, KoTR or Expacion can do, the difference is so great that it easily makes up for the add effect on Excal. That add effect btw has a low proc rate, really low as in 5% low. The ODD on Almace you can keep up by spamming the best sword WS in the game, thus it needs to be accounted for.

That all being said, BLU should of been added to Excal out of principal.

And honestly, all the special WS's should be made permanently available through quests you do after obtaining the weapon.

Your source information, I'd like to see it. Currently you are basing what you have on "eyeball statistics" while also reaffirming what I already said about all source damage in relation to tiers(Either that or you didn't notice the initial tier was based on NO AFTERMATH DOT). And being that Aftermath is not a 100% active function of a weapon it can not be considered in all aspects, hence the reason for mentioning different tier distributions throughout my post (if you had actually read it you would have seen that). This also was stated in the event that blu actually gained the ability to use relic, thus why I said his tiering is incorrect when factoring the different aspects of the weapons in various scenarios.

Now, to look at all source damage tiering: The WoE weapon actually falls below other weapons due to the fact it has no other added effect, or aftermath effect, meaning in all source damage it drops below excal in long term. It is like the old mentality of being 2hander/thf over 2hander/sam in which the Spike damage did not compensate for the over all DoT+WS frequency damage and actually resulted in lower over all source damage.

Only reason almace has higher all source damage is because of two factors: very strong WS and high proc rate of ODD aftermath. Alternatively, WoE version has only the WS not to mention a lower DPS base. Badeliar+3 has a base DPS of 15.50 compared to Excals 17.77, no aftermath effect, and no other additional stats/effects thus is weaker especially in all source damage. Remember DPS is based off the calculation of (Base*60)/delay. On top of that, the add effect of excal has ~5% additional activation on top of 95 weapons higher hidden activation rates at all times (2x=20%, 2.5=15%, 3x=10-12%). thus the reasoning that WoE version falls behind in all source since it only has the DPS and WS going for it and nothing else.

Sawtelle had ~176 dex and couldn't cap dDEX on a Part 1 Tier 1 VWNM, 140 dex isn't close to what's necessary. Small sample but out of 132 landed hits he only managed 9% crit rate from dDEX, which would put the weakest VWNM at around ~130 AGI.

Unfortunately this is too low of a sample to fully determine crit rate. It would be like someone parsing DA with only 100 hits then saying "Yep, it's only ~8% activation" for war. Generally you need large samples on this to get accurate numbers. I say this because I have parsed a great deal on such things and found that you don't reach accurate rates until you have a substantial sample. While I still doubt they had capped dDex, it would probably been closer to 15~17% with a larger sample.

[saevel]

Your source information, I'd like to see it. Currently you are basing what you have on "eyeball statistics" while also reaffirming what I already said about all source damage in relation to tiers(Either that or you didn't notice the initial tier was based on NO AFTERMATH DOT). And being that Aftermath is not a 100% active function of a weapon it can not be considered in all aspects, hence the reason for mentioning different tier distributions throughout my post (if you had actually read it you would have seen that). This also was stated in the event that blu actually gained the ability to use relic, thus why I said his tiering is incorrect when factoring the different aspects of the weapons in various scenarios.

Now, to look at all source damage tiering: The WoE weapon actually falls below other weapons due to the fact it has no other added effect, or aftermath effect, meaning in all source damage it drops below excal in long term. It is like the old mentality of being 2hander/thf over 2hander/sam in which the Spike damage did not compensate for the over all DoT+WS frequency damage and actually resulted in lower over all source damage.

Only reason almace has higher all source damage is because of two factors: very strong WS and high proc rate of ODD aftermath. Alternatively, WoE version has only the WS not to mention a lower DPS base. Badeliar+3 has a base DPS of 15.50 compared to Excals 17.77, no aftermath effect, and no other additional stats/effects thus is weaker especially in all source damage. Remember DPS is based off the calculation of (Base*60)/delay. On top of that, the add effect of excal has ~5% additional activation on top of 95 weapons higher hidden activation rates at all times (2x=20%, 2.5=15%, 3x=10-12%). thus the reasoning that WoE version falls behind in all source since it only has the DPS and WS going for it and nothing else.



Unfortunately this is too low of a sample to fully determine crit rate. It would be like someone parsing DA with only 100 hits then saying "Yep, it's only ~8% activation" for war. Generally you need large samples on this to get accurate numbers. I say this because I have parsed a great deal on such things and found that you don't reach accurate rates until you have a substantial sample. While I still doubt they had capped dDex, it would probably been closer to 15~17% with a larger sample.

I know you like your Excal and all, but please stop trying to show it's better then a CDC weapon, its not, it's already been demonstrated. CDC is -that- powerful.

Also which NM and what where the testing conditions? Because from everything I've seen they do not have ridiculous stats at all. And this isn't eyeball testing either.

Also your DPS numbers are WAY off, you made the classic mistake of factoring them without accounting for fSTR. Now while I doubt Badelair will shift too much, CDC alone pretty much guarantee's it'll destroy the other ones.

[Tashan]

Also your DPS numbers are WAY off, you made the classic mistake of factoring them without accounting for fSTR. Now while I doubt Badelair will shift too much, CDC alone pretty much guarantee's it'll destroy the other ones.

Did say base DPS.

Also which NM and what where the testing conditions? Because from everything I've seen they do not have ridiculous stats at all. And this isn't eyeball testing either.

Present your testing results and/or cite sources. At the moment the only thing I get from reading your posts is that you're a theoryfighter.

Which is accountable for nothing.

[Kitkat]

Honestly, if I knew a rdm or pld that had all 3 weapons at the 95 version I would love to parse each so that the only variable difference would be the swords and stats the swords gave. Granted WS gear would be different due to different mods, but otherwise the DoT would be near static aside from the obvious rank difference between WOE compared to relic or emp. Other than number crunches I can't get proof beyond all doubt to show why I rank WoE at 3rd compared to relic, even in a number crunch the difference shifted from 2% in favor of WOE to 4% in favor of relic in a Lower/Upper scaling. This however did not account for chance to double attack during WS which I would rather leave to a parse than pen and paper to weed out the possibility of error.

PS: I have a mandau, not an excal. I was simply running calulations and looking at parse data I had from my Almace blu compared to a Relic pld, but even that is askewed since I was dual weilding and he wasn't. Maybe I can get him on his rdm and compare it to my rdm.....I'll have to see if he even has equal gear for that.

[Prothscar]

No they don't. They have the regular stats as other NM's of their particular levels.

SE doesn't give it's monsters crazy stats, they don't eat food, wear gear or receive super buffs. Instead SE just gives them crazy powerful TP moves using 200~400 DMG weapons. +100~200 MAB, -25~50% PDT / MDT and so forth. This is how SE always does things, even inside Abyssea the NM's didn't have crazy high stats.

Yes. They do. Every voidwatch NM can be compared to the Kirin of 75; highly inflated stats compared to other NMs of their levels. Saying that they have 120~130 or even more of critical stats wouldn't be far from the truth.

Really adds to the topic.... Really!

(Realises this doesn't add much either, meh!)

It does, disagreeing with a baseless and idiotic assumption is adding to the conversation. He's yet to put forth any logical evidence to correspond with his claims, and thus doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

I really don't see his point, I have him blocked so I don't have to deal with his immature rantings so this might just more of the usual.

Really all you need is 50 more Dex then the target has AGI, was difficult at 75 but since then SE has added tons of amazing gear with lots of DEX on it. I usually use the Dex+10 Attack+10 atmacite along with the STR+4 AGI+4 Acc+5 Regain+2 atmacite, puts me at 150 DEX during WS. Add on Bravers for +20 on each stat puts me at 170 DEX. Monsters would need an AGI of 120~130 to bring down the crit rate. And so far not a single VWNM has this, aside from possibly Kaggan.

ITT: Logical and factual information = immature ranting. Someone doesn't like being wrong. So basically what he's saying is that it was difficult to cap dDEX at 75, but now that SE has added new gear with DEX it's easier. News flash: they've added higher level NMs with far higher stats to go along with the new gear. You aren't getting capped dDEX on VWNMs, save maybe a few, and even that is unlikely. You're wrong, get over yourself.

For reference to go against your claims, absolutely hilarious ones btw, about SE not giving mobs high stats: Kirin has 149INT and 120VIT, a monster designed for the 75 cap who just happens to have a higher level variation in Voidwatch.