[dev1029] SCH Feedback

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SCH as a subjob may up skill to B+ but that will only help Cure III, SCH learn Cure IV at 55 so /SCH it will never be a worthy subjob unless you're WHM or RDM. RDM is the subjob that is too over powered and I don't think SE quite understand that. They're too obsessed with making sure WHM thrashes every job even the ones with native skill in it that they're killing other jobs.

[Merton9999]

For example any healing skill over 276 (A+ cap) adds 1HP healed. This keeps the standard cure III's and IV's essentially locked in at their current capped values for jobs pre 75 and subbing WHM or the like, and allows healing jobs above 75 the ability for increased healing performance.

I agree with this. The biggest worry I'd have if healing skill were to matter is that assisting with cures in Dark Arts when necessary would result in reduced values compared to now, putting SCH's lack of immediate flexibility in an even worse position. As long as any changes to Cure III and Cure IV only allow for an increase in current numbers and not a decrease I'd be fine with this direction. It would be a boon to healing classes only, but not nerf SCH further.

I say fine but only in the end if RDM and SCH can actually perform as adequate healers after the changes. I don't want to replace anyone's WHM, including my own. I want to play with a variety of mage jobs in coming end game content, not just 2. SE's recent attempts to offer uniqueness to RDM and SCH have been entirely out of touch with changes in game content. That's why alterations to MND, healing skill and cure potency have me worried. People will "test" this standing outside their mog house and say it sounds great but in real scenarios I'm skeptical.

This is why I want Cure V added to RDM and SCH - not because I really want that spell, but because it's easy and will work for those jobs. The hysteria insisting that it would suddenly make another job that is incredibly competent at the healing role instantly shunned is mind blowing. It happened during one era of FFXI history for a very specific reason that no longer exists, and quite frankly I never experienced personally on WHM after /SCH became available.

[xbobx]

One thing they could do is give Cure 5 to rdm and sch but change the mnd calculation not to be as effective as whm.

So a cure 5 on rdm or sch with gear caps at 800 while Whm can hit 1k+. Maybe way way back they should have given whm a Cure %+ trait only available as whm main. Would have helped back then since whm was not wanted as a healer it was rdm only. Unless R3 was needed

[Daniel_Hatcher]

One thing they could do is give Cure 5 to rdm and sch but change the mnd calculation not to be as effective as whm.

So a cure 5 on rdm or sch with gear caps at 800 while Whm can hit 1k+. Maybe way way back they should have given whm a Cure %+ trait only available as whm main. Would have helped back then since whm was not wanted as a healer it was rdm only. Unless R3 was needed

We've suggested gimps before... Lower the potency for SCH and RDM, even remove the low enmity if they wanted to.... SE have just decided to bury their head in the sand instead.

[hideka]

two things about scholar right now:
1, Embrava is bugged: it will heal the pulse martello (only healable via quests) and revive all clone wards and regen them to full HP when AOE'd on NPC combatants.
2. Allow storm spells to be cast on Opponents as well as Party members. the utility behind this is lowering the power of incoming magic Example: Rainstorm on ifrit, drops his fire damage down by 10% due to opposing weather
3. Allow us to set up to two Storm spells simultaneously, however, prevent them from being duplicates, and prevent opposing elements from being active at the same time Example: Fire storm + wind storm = OK/ Fire storm + ice storm = not ok/ Fire storm + firestorm = not ok.
4. Increase the stat bonuses from storm surge to +3 per merit, not +3 +1+1+1+1.
5. Change Light arts and dark arts, so that they scale up in potency as you level Example: dark arts at level 30 provides 10% reduction in casting mp recasting, dark arts at 60 provides a 15% reduction, and 90 provides a 20% reduction.

the reason behind number 2 is Scholar lacks a set of exclusive Enfeebling spells ( helicies ARE NOT enfeebles, they are Nukes fused with damage over time effects), i feel it would be a potentially powefull asset to SCH.

the reason behind number 3 is Scholar as a class is HEAVILY reliant on weather effects to preform on par with other classes. having one storm spell active limits you to one elemental school for being most effective. keeping 2 spells up increases your maximum effectiveness by allowing you to have 2 types of spells you can choose from at maximum efficiency

the reason for number 4: +7 on a stat is Meh.

the reason for number 5: due to the addition of elemental celerity scholars cant even keep up with BLM casting speeds using Celerity. its obscene when i can party with a BLM and they can cast two T5s before i can finish casting 1 T5.

[Siiri]

Per no. 5, that was the whole point of the elemental celerity buff to black mages. It was a travesty that scholar casted faster than the specialist in the job. Black mage was really drug down at 75 by slow casting and no mp restoration. Both red mage and scholar significantly outperformed black mage over time due to black mages slow casting and needing to rest.

Besides, don't scholars have celerity to cut their dark art casting time, and penury on the other time? Scholar is supposed to be the strategic mage, it isn't supposed to have more proficiency than black mage and white mage without using strategms.

[Motenten]

Assuming capped healing magic at each level, and level/2 mnd in gear, level information:

[Cure # @level learned, hard cap @level capped]

Whm:
Cure 1 @1, hard cap @13
Cure 2 @11, hard cap @24
Cure 3 @20, hard cap @46
Cure 4 @41, hard cap @69
Cure 5 @61, hard cap @82


Rdm:
Cure 1 @3, hard cap @14
Cure 2 @17, hard cap @25
Cure 3 @26, hard cap @46
Cure 4 @48, hard cap @72


Whm reaches hard cap for a given spell slightly after they get the next tier of spell.

Rdm reaches hard cap slightly later than whm. Rdm tends to hit hard cap for one tier just a couple levels before they get the next spell.


Total gain in HP cured for each spell, from the level learned until lvl 95:

Whm:
Cure 1: 30
Cure 2: 32
Cure 3: 54
Cure 4: 62
Cure 5: 92

Rdm:
Cure 1: 24
Cure 2: 19
Cure 3: 40
Cure 4: 50

What percentage of the total amount gained per spell is acquired by level 49:

Whm:
Cure 1: 87%
Cure 2: 84%
Cure 3: 85%
Cure 4: 19%
Cure 5: --

Rdm:
Cure 1: 88%
Cure 2: 79%
Cure 3: 75%
Cure 4: 0%

So the majority of the potency of cures 1-3 are gained by the subjob cap of 49. The exception being Cure IV since it's learned so close to that level, and which gains only about 50 points of HP healed (~12.5% of its full potency) from the soft cap up to the lvl 95 cap.

Cure amounts for a lvl ~99 character with lvl 49 whm or rdm subjob:
Cure 1: 33
Cure 2: 94
Cure 3: 196
Cure 4: 393

Percentage relative to max cure capacity of rdm or whm at 99 (projected assuming same skill gain rates for 96-99 as for 91-95):
Cure 1: 94%
Cure 2: 97%
Cure 3: 98%
Cure 4: 97%


Therefore someone subbing rdm or whm would get about 97% of the base cured HP as either of the main jobs. Since Power is weighted far more heavily towards Mnd than towards healing skill, the lack of healing skill of a lvl 99 character has almost no detrimental effect. The scaling effect on power past the hard cap further limits any differences in total HP cured.

On the other hand, you still want to ramp up power towards the hard cap quickly enough that the spells are generally useful for lower-level characters.

Since you gain 1-2 points of mnd per level (rough guess, on average, including gear), and (at lower levels) 3 points of skill, stat gain is worth about twice as much as skill gain. To weight that more towards skill than stat...

Reference: Current Power = 3 * (Mnd + HealSkill/5) + Vit
Ok, Power v2 = 3 * (Mnd/2 + HealSkill/2) + Vit

Amount cured by a lvl 49 character (Power v1):
Cure 1: 31
Cure 2: 92
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 353 (rdm) / 356 (whm)

Amount cured by a lvl 49 character (Power v2):
Cure 1: 32
Cure 2: 92
Cure 3: 191
Cure 4: 360 (rdm) / 365 (whm)

Amount cured by a lvl 99/49 character (Power v2):
Cure 1: 33
Cure 2: 94
Cure 3: 194
Cure 4: 389 (/rdm) / 391 (/whm)

Amount cured by a lvl 99 rdm:
Cure 1: 36
Cure 2: 99
Cure 3: 206
Cure 4: 417

Amount cured by a lvl 99 whm:
Cure 1: 36
Cure 2: 100
Cure 3: 208
Cure 4: 423
Cure 5: 742

Gives native heal skill characters a bit more of an edge than subjobbing characters, without really penalizing subjobbers. Not enough total gain, though.

Currently, Cures 1/2/3 go from /2 on scale 1 (pre soft-cap) to /4 on scale 2 (pre hard-cap). Cure 5 goes from /(4/3) on scale 1 to /2 on scale 2. Cure 4 uses the 4/3 rate on scale 1 (same as Cure 5), but changes to /4 on scale 2 (same as Cure 3). The relative difference in rate change for Cure 4 and Cure 5 is also different both from each other and from the three lower cures.

Would consider matching them up:

          Scale 1       Scale 2
Cure 1:         2             4
Cure 2:         2             4
Cure 3:         2             4
Cure 4:       4/3           8/3
Cure 5:       4/3           8/3

That increases Cure 4's gain rate after the soft cap, but decreases Cure 5's gain rate.

Rdm Cure 4 @49: 375 (up from 353)
Rdm Cure 4 @99: 447 (up from 406 with v1 Power, 417 with v2 Power)
Whm Cure 5 @99: 712 (down from 742 with v2 Power, identical to 712 with v1 Power)


Given the lower soft-cap scale, the previously suggested reduction in the hard-cap scale to 2 isn't needed. The subjobber is just barely hitting the hard cap power level, so any changes for the post-hard-cap scale will pretty much exclusively apply to main skill healers.

Am considering another doubling of the scale at tier 3 for Cure 4. So
Scale 1 = 4/3
Scale 2 = 8/3
Scale 3 = 16/3 (previously 13, or 39/3)

That would give rdm 486 Cure 4's at level 99 (compared to 418 for a 99/49). Whm would get 501.

Of course that gives Cure 4 a slightly better tier 3 scaling than Cure 5. Adjusting Cure 5 to match changes lvl 99 cure from 712 to 722. Seems fine to just let them stay in sync.

Overall increase for rdm is going from 406 to 486, a 20% increase, while streamlining the scaling factors. Healing skill becomes a more dominant factor in the final equation, giving those with native healing skill a decided edge over those who are just using the subjob skill.

What about Cure 3, since a second cure is needed to alternate with Cure 4? Well, speculatively, first going to try adjusting the hard cap scaling factor to match the increase used for Cure 4/5. Since scale 2 is /4, going to /8 for scale 3.

Power v2, default scaling:
99 rdm: 206
99/49 rdm: 194
99 whm: 208
99/49 whm: 195

Power v2, /8 scaling:
99 rdm: 254
99/49 rdm: 209
99 whm: 264
99/49 whm: 211

The target I'd suggested before (~250 cure 3, 500 cure 4) is approximately made with that scale adjustment.

To go along with this, I'd suggest /16 for Cure 2, and /32 for Cure 1. That gives cures at 130 and 54, respectively, for 99 rdm, while keeping subjob cures at just a bit higher than previous.



Final suggested scaling:

          Scale 1       Scale 2       Scale 3
Cure 1:         2             4            32
Cure 2:         2             4            16
Cure 3:         2             4             8
Cure 4:       4/3           8/3          16/3
Cure 5:       4/3           8/3          16/3

Using a Power calculation of:
Power v2 = 3 * (Mnd/2 + HealSkill/2) + Vit

And not changing the current cutoffs for soft and hard caps on power per spell, or the initial base offset for the spell.

Scale 1 = before soft cap
Scale 2 = after soft cap, before hard cap
Scale 3 = after hard cap


Healing skill has significantly greater value, Cure 3+4 is sufficient to match Cure 5. Sch's totals will be closer to the whm values here while in Light Arts, and overall can be expected to be bounded by the rdm and whm values given.

To supplement this, sch gets the regen adjustments (I'll make another post on suggested adjustments for the scaling of that), and rdm has an entire thread of suggestions on improvements that could be made to its enfeebling abilities.

[Motenten]

Suggested Regen duration: 144 seconds (exactly 1 game hour), or 48 ticks.

Current HP rate for sch on test server, but assuming 48 tick duration:

Regen 1:
- rate: 21 (22) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1008 to 1056 HP.
- MP cost: 15
- HP/MP ratio: 67-70

Regen 2
- rate: 28 (30) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1344 to 1440 HP.
- MP cost: 36
- HP/MP ratio: 37-40

Regen 3
- rate: 36 (39) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1728 to 1872 HP.
- MP cost: 64
- HP/MP ratio: 27-29

Regen 4
- rate: 54 (58) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 2592 to 2784 HP.
- MP cost: 82
- HP/MP ratio: 31-34


You can see a noticeably skewed MP efficiency imbalance between the different regens (and that's assuming they have the same durations; given the different durations on the test server, it's significantly worse).

There does not appear to be any valid reason to use different durations for the different spells. 48 ticks (1 game hour) appears to be a functionally useful duration in all cases. Therefore the only adjustments should relate to how much is cured per tick, and how it relates to MP efficiency.

Because the HP/tick rates are (on the test server) fixed increases to the previous non-boosted values, the rate at which higher tiers of the spell gain relative to the MP cost of the spell drops considerably. Regen 1 maintains an extremely high MP efficiency because of its lower MP cost, though it's HP rate increased the most (going from 6 to 22 is a 3.6x increase, compared to Regen 4's going from 34 to 58, a mere 1.7x increase).

In terms of maintaining MP efficiency, you can reach a fairly even scale across the board by changing the HP adjustment from a flat +16 to instead use 2x the base rate (before adding AF3+2 hat).

Regen 1:
- 10 (11) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 480 to 528 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 32-35

Regen 2:
- 24 (26) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 1152 to 1248 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 32-35

Regen 3:
- 40 (43) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 1920 to 2064 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 30-32

Regen 4:
- 60 (64) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 2880 to 3072 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 35-37


Regen 4 can be capped at 56 (boosted up to 60 with AF3+2 hat), for:

Regen 4:
- 56 (60) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 2688 to 2880 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 33-35


That gives a fairly balanced effect all around.

Regens provide healing over time, but are also limited by that very fact.

If a whm casts Cure V and needs more cured *right now*, they can toss a Cure IV or Cure VI immediately. They may burn through MP fast, but they can keep casting and piling on more HP cured for as long as the MP holds out. Regens, on the other hand, have a fixed value. If you need more cured *right now*, casting another regen is useless. It just continues at its existing pace.

While the above numbers appear to cure quite a lot, they are spread out over a fairly lengthy amount of time, and potentially don't cure anything if you're not getting hurt (whereas you can just refrain from casting a Cure if someone isn't presently hurt).

What might be a comparable amount cured? A Curaga IV hitting 3 people could cure about 3000 HP in about the same amount of time it takes to cast a Regen (rather than over the next 2 and a half minutes), and (for a whm) for only slightly more MP (100 MP with Light Arts and AF3+2 pants, compared to 73 MP for a Regen 4 from sch).

Given the trade-off of the time it takes to actually receive the HP payout vs the MP spent, it does not appear to be at all unbalanced.

I would thus suggest that this is a far more reasonable and balanced improvement to how regen healing is calculated than that which is currently in place. (excluding possible secondary bonuses that have been suggested, such as regain, crit rate, +max HP, etc).

Edit: game day > game hour

[Heimdall]

No no no no no no no no NO! I've had a lot of respect for a number of calls the XI team has made in the past year or two, but this is one I absolutely cannot agree with. If Cure V was the highest tier Cure spell, I'd say the point is debatable. But the advantage I have with WHM as a healer is not that I can cast Cure V, but rather that I can rapidly jump back and forth between casting Cure V and VI. If SCH and RDM were to be given Cure V, WHM would STILL be the superior healer. WHM would still have the highest tier Cure, an arsenal of Curagas, and the best means of curing debuffs. However, SCH and RDM would be more viable to fill the main healer role with Cure V. To say that WHM is the ONLY job that is allowed to be the main healer is absolutely ridiculous. Would you say that NIN can be the only evasion tank? PLD can be the only defense tank? SAM can be the only DD? BRD can be the only support? BLM can be the only magic DD? No! There are 20 jobs that realistically need to fill about 6 roles. Your stance on main healers right now comes off as extremely stubborn. A main healer is a required role in almost all non-soloable content (and the only reason any content is soloable is because it doesn't require a main healer). To essentially say "You must fill the main healer role with WHM" is the equivalent of saying "You must bring a WHM to everything", which is simply absurd.

that might have something to do with they just changed the dev team sending the one we had to14 and giving us back the old one who were on 14

[Motenten]

Also, Camate, while I realize you may not be a big math-head, when you translate this (you are translating this, right?), please include the mathematical basis aspect rather than just a simple summary of the suggestion. Since the player model of how the game works will of course not fully match the actual game code, in order for my suggestion to make sense the devs have to understand the model I'm using so they can see how it lines up with their own algorithms.