[dev1029] SCH Feedback

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Be

Don't forget WHM buffs WAY better than RDM. WHM nukes are awesome, Banish III and Holy/Holy II do nice damage, cost less MP and are more accurate than RDM nukes(outside of Abyssea too). WHM/SCH also has most of RDMs enfeebles except gravity and tier2s. Sad that the only exclusive enfeebles or buffs the master of enfeebling and enhancing gets is merit spells and refresh2(MEH), but the master of healing gets plenty of exclusive heals and buffs.

You forgot WHM is a better melee'r than RDM too, but yeah! All WHM does is cure.... /rolleyes

[Shibayama]

Why does all of this sound familiar... Throngs of people upset that a small handful of people are controlling the outcome of things, often putting the former at a disadvantage.

Hmm.

But in any case, I'm not even a white mage and I'm seriously starting to get fed-up with all of this class warfare that seems to be completely exacerbated by the devs who have done nothing but show they have a feeble paper understanding of the jobs and how they work/should be directed. The whole "Whm can only heal so rdm and sch should exist only to support them in tough fights" argument is totally rediculous, mainly because as many of you have pointed out, WHM is also the best buffer/status remover as well as the best healer with access to many of rdm's toys. Also the truth is almost every group would prefer 2 whms to a whm and a job to make the whm's job abit easier.

The dev's seem to live in an ideal world where you can go any job you want and every jobs bonuses make them worthwhile to have, and having a little bit of everything but not being able to make an impact with it is just as desirable as a job that only has one role but is clearly the best at it. SE usually has no clue how to handle middle of the road jobs (Pup, dnc, rdm, sch, ect) but seems to think that because they can do certain things, it means people will want them, but don't make them powerful enough to make use of some major abilities cuz then the "main jobs" get pushed back. (DNC waltzes for example - them being instant and uninterruptable is enough of a reasoning to make us locked out of healing for 25 seconds but whatever just throw more waltz potency gear our way I bet that'll work.)

And am I the only one getting sick of the "We're gunna add gear to fix the problem" solution going on? How many of you angry rdms and sch's have access to Heka's kalasiris hmm?

[Raksha]

How many of you angry rdms and sch's have access to Heka's kalasiris hmm?

About a dozen kills so far no drop. But of course a guy's mule got 2 of them.

[Fredjan]

In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

I like this idea. As I said in my main post, should consider Regen V at 99 while they're at it.

Healing magic mini-rant:
I deal with a few RDM and SCH that only cure in a Light Staff. They are WAY behind the times, sure. In this stage in the game, any mage that can equip a Surya's Staff/+1/+2/+3 can cap cure potency, thanks to the update.

As for items like Heka's Kalasiris... I personally got a Nefer Kalasiris to ensure I can cap it before I deal with the frustration that is the Voidwatch loot system, although yes in Scholar's predicament, you do need Heka's Kalasiris in the situations where you want to use Aurorastorm+Obi+Twilight Cape+Rapture to maintain 50% potency.

WHM is still the superior healer in all situations, even if SCH and RDM were given Cure V. None of them will EVER reach a WHM's ability to support the party in any serious event, and here's a couple reasons because I'm feeling nice today - even in scenarios where RDM+SCH would have V:
- Barspell potency (plus barspell merits). WHM/SCH has the best in the game, not to mention stuff like Orison Bliaud +2 under Afflatus Solace improving the MDB of the element. Any other job that casts these, as well as any WHM using a support job other than SCH results in inferior potency no matter what. Dare I mention how frustrated I get when a WHM/BLM, WHM/RDM, WHM/SMN, or another mage like RDM or SCH /WHM overwrites my barspells? I cringe to be honest. I feel it's an extremely underrated series of spells sometimes when I see support job discussions for WHM but I digress (as that is another topic so)...
- Shellra V with full merits.
- Cure VI in a pinch - it's an emergency cure outside of Abyssea, and Curaga V's for those even rarer pinches where you'd want to do a mini-Benediction I guess?

Regardless... I never feel comfortable healing unless I'm on White Mage anyways, but when it comes down to it, people should be able to support their healers. The issue at hand is: Just by how much?

RDM and SCH (and even in a way more-so Paladin, for additional hate purposes) DO need their cure abilities strengthened, but I'd settle for something that's not Cure V if it proves to be worth the time. It IS about time these stats were considered more (Healing skill and MND) on spells that aren't Cure V-VI or Curaga IV-V. The only reason they haven't mattered as much is that it takes no effort to reach the "soft cap" on these spells. Once that soft cap has been reached, not much will boost it other than cure potency and day/weather bonuses.

[Motenten]

The end effect will depend on what part of the equation they intend to mess with.

Currently, Power rating is: 3 * (mnd + healskill/5) + vit

While it would be nice at the low end for bump up the effect of healing skill or mnd on the final cure, it will have minimal, if any, effect at the high end. Why is that? Well, that has to do with the scaling.

Tier 1: from minimum cured to the soft cap. This scales at a rate of 2 power per HP for Cures 1/2/3, and 4 power per 3 HP for Cures 4/5 (don't know data for 6). The spells reach their soft cap at the following power ratings:

Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 220
Cure 5: 320


Tier 2: from soft cap to hard cap. This scales at a rate of 4 power per HP for Cures 1/2/3/4, and 2 power per HP for Cure 5. Hard cap is reached at the following power ratings:

Cure 1: 100
Cure 2: 170
Cure 3: 300
Cure 4: 460
Cure 5: 560

The room for growth is more limited on the lower tier cures, and Cure 5 scales faster than any of the others. How much power is 560 (hard cap for Cure 5)? Well, someone with a cure set with 80 vit and 100 mnd would reach it with 300 Healing Magic skill. In other words, a fairly low bar. You can pretty much sneeze and hit the hard cap for the lower tier cures.

Tier 3: above the hard cap. There is no final cap, but it doesn't matter because the scaling becomes outrageous at this point. Below is the additional amount of power needed to cure 1 extra point of HP for each cure:

Cure 1: 114
Cure 2: 71.33
Cure 3: 31.33
Cure 4: 13
Cure 5: 5.667


So, suppose we take a rdm with capped Healing Magic at level 95 (C-, 340 skill), and change the rate at which healing skill affects cures. Instead of skill/5, make it skill/4. How much extra power is that? 51 extra power. How much additional curing is that? About 4 HP for Cure 4.

Suppose we drop the scale on healing magic all the way down to 1. Full effect. How much extra power, and how much extra healing? 816 extra power. 63 more HP cured per Cure 4. So you could go from a 406 to a 469 (before cure potency) Cure 4. Not that impressive for such a massive increase in power.

However, per Camate:

So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

Increasing the influence of healing skill and MND increases power, yes, but you have to increase it ludicrous amounts for it to be worth anything at all. The second half, however, implies something more likely to affect the scaling factor.

If they dropped the extreme scaling factors after the hard cap, it's conceivable to get something useful out of it. However to make any recommendations here, we'd need a target amount cured to aim for.

What's top end power? For a whm with capped healing skill (396) and around 90 mnd and 45 in gear, plus 80 vit, it'd come out to 722. For a rdm with capped healing skill (340), 87+45 mnd (lazy, not working out another gear set) and 77 vit, that's 677. Not too far behind, only about 45 points of power.

Current Cure 4 with 677 power is 406 HP, and Cure 3 is 202. Those two spells have to cover what rdm and sch heals for. Cure 5 heals for 710 at that power level.

Cure 5+4 = 1116 HP. Setting an arbitrary goal: Target 2/3 of that value in two cures, so Cure 4+3 should cure for 744. Given that Cure 4 is just about 2x Cure 3, that means Cure 3 should cure for 248 and Cure 4 should cure for 496.

If we change healing magic to scale at /3 instead of /5 (and don't make any change to MND or VIT), that gives us 1 point of power for every point of healing skill, and gains 136 power total. Given the amount healed at the hard cap of 390, we want to add 106 HP cured with the excess (677-460)=217 power, which basically means scaling at power/2 after the hard cap.

A quick check shows base healing with a post-hard cap scale of 2 to be 498 HP cured with 677 power. Post-hard cap for Cure 3 would need to drop from 31.33 to 6.33 to cure 249 at 677 power. Could also shuffle things around in terms of the gain in the tier 2 scaling, rather than letting the scale factor go from 2 to 4 and then back to 2, but that's for the devs to fiddle with.

So the question is, given that rdm and sch aren't getting Cure 5, is a 25% boost in the effective potency of the other cures sufficient to do the job? Rdm would get ~750 Cure 4's with 50% potency; sch could get maybe 850 with weather+gear, and push that up towards ~1350 with strategems.

To me it seems a reasonable target in amount cured for rdm and sch. Honestly, seems bordering overpowered for sch in terms of MP efficiency, but they'll have to deal with the hate from it as well. ... Actually, with strategem use (so ~1350 cured for 80 MP), it would put sch at just a bit above the MP efficiency of a whm/sch's Cure 5 after factoring in AF3+2 pants, so perhaps not quite so overpowered after all.

Anyway, that would be my proffered suggestion for the curing aspect of the potential changes.

[Siiri]

Wow, people really trying to say Holy 2 and Banish 3 are better than Blizzard IV and Thunder IV? I know the math types had red mage as a better per mp healer than black mage for a long time, please don't pretend red mage is in a bad spot for nuking. I have to go to work now so I can't do math on this, but aside from the rare fully solaced holy spells someone please math out banish 3 and holy/holy 2 doing more damage than Blizzard/Thunder IV. And melee damage is irrelevant because any event you HAVE to have a white mage currently on that said white mage would be a fool to be meleeing. Red mages would be too, but you have the delusional almace red mages who think they always have to melee. If you can melee as the main healing mage and melee too, a red mage could do it as well as a white mage.

Oh, and red mage already marginalized white mage once at 75. Apparently SE didn't like that. Scholar would smoke white mage once they get haste from /rdm. White mage had all the barspells, Cure v advantages at 75 and was still left behind in many missions / salvage/ etc because red mage was "so much better" in the eyes of the general populace. My old end game linkshell refused to allow white mages in limbus or salvage, and originally said no white mages in t1 or t2 in einherjar.

[Mizuharu]

How many of you angry rdms and sch's have access to Heka's kalasiris hmm?

I think all of our mages would have about five each by now if the DDs stopped getting them.

[Scuro]

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Regen and Cure V around the forums, so I wanted to pass along feedback that we received from the dev. team that Mocchi posted up earlier today.



In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

With the level cap being increased and HP/damage taken amounts increasing, we understand that HP recovery amounts are low; however, we feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

With that said our goal is not to make it so a certain job’s advantages are given to other jobs so they are able to do the same thing, instead we would like to look into how we can keep each job’s specialties intact and create ways that they can support other jobs.

I don't get it... Why make it so we can create a Cure V out of cure potency and mind.... and not give us Cure V.... that just sounds like more worthless effort that achieves nothing. Just seems absurd, unless you make it so I can pop Rapture every 15 seconds...

Also if Cure V is really the spell that makes WHM actually useful, then you guys are doing something wrong with the job, and if its really that big of a deal. Give WHM Cure VII so that you can give Cure V to SCHs, because this is some BS. We are using cures that were useful at 75, which is completely pointless at 90, not to mention Cure IV generates more hate then Cure V, hence why it goes to PLD. Seriously... waita make it so that only WHMs can cure
/slow clap

[saevel]

They need to significantly up the soft / hand caps for Cure I ~ IV and make Tranquil Heart reduce a significantly larger amount of enmity. It's the soft / hard caps that are making Cure IV heal for so little now, a SMN/WHM shouldn't be healing for the same amount as a RDM or SCH, ever.

[cidbahamut]

White Mage ONRY