How about an Enfeebling Magic thread?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This wouldn't be a fair trade for White Mage. If you think it is, you severely overestimate Divine nukes. Plus, you can sub Red Mage, still have a portion of the MP regeneration and speedcast powers that /SCH provides, while getting MABII if you need it. You can't sub White Mage for Cure V.

Of course, this thread isn't supposed to be about trolling for Cure V, it is supposed to be about enfeebles. Like talking about how Red Mage should get toy enfeebles in addition to real adjustments since jobs like White Mage have toy nukes (not real nukes).

In my opinion, something that nerfs TP build and maybe harms TP move accuracy would be a nice one, in addition to a self-hurting paralyze that could be called something like Confuse. This could be implemented in addition to toy enfeebles like Toad.

I was messing about. While I do want Cure V, I didn't really think it was a far trade.

[Economizer]

Another thing that would be nice to see more of would be spikes spells that inflict enfeebles, although Ice Spikes are hard to beat. I always felt that enspells and spikes spells were the most representative spells from Red Mage because they combine Enhancing, Enfeebling, and Elemental damage together. If anyone should be mixing spells together in a powerful way, it should be Red Mage.

Perhaps Earth Spikes that inflict slow, Wind Spikes that inflict Silence, and a new form or upgrading Blaze Spikes to inflict Addle?

[Seriha]

Logic that Aquaveil, Blink, Stoneskin, Dread, and Reprisal are their respective elemental "spikes" aside, the problem with those is similar to that we faced with Shield Mastery: Without being the mob's focus, they're pretty much useless. Granted, I like defensive enfeebles if done right, but offensive maneuvers tend to get the most use. This isn't to say the concepts can't be melded in some way, though.

For example, when we had another enfeebling thread in the past, my idea for a Pain enfeeble involved the amount of damage a mob does in a given attack directly subtracts from its ATK for its next attack round. This would basically diminish the amount of damage a hit does every other attack round, and with luck, could factor into the damage of a TP move if used in a low phase. This doesn't quite address how some mobs are simply given stupid high weapon damage ratings, but that's also another type of enfeeble that could be looked into.

Anyway, with Helix spells being improved for SCH, I'd want to so DoT enfeebles are largely out of our domain at this point. This isn't to say Poison III or something better than Bio III could land its way in our arsenal, but subbing SCH aside, we'll probably never personally see anything as good in our arsenal. And given the exploitation of various DoT tactics in the past, I'm not entirely surprised. Otherwise, to generalize, if there's a stat in the game, a buff or debuff can be made to affect it. There are lots of stats, just going beyond what we see on our screens. Much as I dread how I'd arrange my macros with dozens of new spells, they're possibilities.

[Economizer]

Without being the mob's focus, they're pretty much useless.

At this point, most of Red Mage's problems (and more relevant to this thread, defensive enfeebles, and other enhancing based moves) would be solved when they fix the merits.

It would be very easy for them. First remove Phalanx II as a spell. Then replace it with a merit that gives Red Mage a job trait that allows casting most buffs on other party members when under the effects of Composure. This would include Barspells, Aquaviel, Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx, the Gain-STAT family of spells (but not Temper), and the spikes spells. It could also potentially include Reraise. Additional merits would increase the duration of spells, up to 50% (If I'm doing the math right, its multiplicative with the RDM AF3 gear, which means duration would be increased three fold with the full set, or at least that's the goal).

I know its slightly veering off topic, but that would also help Red Mage when it comes time to give out more defensive enfeebles.

[Seriha]

I can't say I find the prospect of a Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, Regen, Reraise, Spikes, Gain, Barelement, Barstatus, Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin cycle appealing without vastly significant duration boosts. I'm talking like a half hour for everything that isn't consumed in some way like Stoneskin or Blink. And this doesn't even account for new stuff that may come about if pimping the defensive angle of enfeebling. Regardless, you'll get no argument from me about converting merit spells to scroll learned.

Otherwise, while defensive enfeebles can justify some higher potencies since they'd inherently carry the risk of taking damage or some other condition, offensive actions will ultimately see more immediate results that people will hone in on in a game where a strong offense is often the best defense. It's not so much that our enfeebles are useless on fodder, but more that we can't inflict them all in time to be meaningful. To that end, I wouldn't mind more combined spells that don't sacrifice potency for the speed of infliction, perhaps leading to a Bad Breath equivalent for RDMs that doesn't suck. It's just a matter of deciding how to pair/group effects, like how Radiant Breath inflicts Slow and Silence on top of its damage. Actually, it'd be nice if whatever new enfeebles carried a slight damage component, or sin of sins, TP generation for the RDM.

[Economizer]

I can't say I find the prospect of a Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, Regen, Reraise, Spikes, Gain, Barelement, Barstatus, Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin cycle appealing without vastly significant duration boosts. I'm talking like a half hour for everything that isn't consumed in some way like Stoneskin or Blink. And this doesn't even account for new stuff that may come about if pimping the defensive angle of enfeebling.

Assuming 3x duration like Composure gives (which is the target) you'd only be casting Gain spells every 15 minutes, like other five minute buffs. Three minute buffs like Phalanx would last about 9 minutes.

Casting Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaviel on others is a pretty big waste of time in my opinion.

Since Phalanx is already something you can merit to cast on others, or sub Scholar to AOE, it isn't really a new buff to cycle. You'd only really be gaining Spikes and Gain spells. While Gain spells would be another cycle, you'd only really have to cast the spikes spell on the tank, which wouldn't be too bad at a nine minute duration.

I know I forgot to mention enspells, but I think that along with Temper, they should remain self-cast only regardless.

Regardless, you'll get no argument from me about converting merit spells to scroll learned.

I was actually talking about eliminating Phalanx II, but that too.

Otherwise, while defensive enfeebles can justify some higher potencies since they'd inherently carry the risk of taking damage or some other condition, offensive actions will ultimately see more immediate results that people will hone in on in a game where a strong offense is often the best defense. It's not so much that our enfeebles are useless on fodder, but more that we can't inflict them all in time to be meaningful. To that end, I wouldn't mind more combined spells that don't sacrifice potency for the speed of infliction, perhaps leading to a Bad Breath equivalent for RDMs that doesn't suck. It's just a matter of deciding how to pair/group effects, like how Radiant Breath inflicts Slow and Silence on top of its damage. Actually, it'd be nice if whatever new enfeebles carried a slight damage component, or sin of sins, TP generation for the RDM.

TP generation like Occult Acumen for Red Mage, even if it was only for enfeebles would be an interesting thing to have.

On the defensive enfeebles in general, I don't think they should replace enfeebling magic, but they could be a tool to augment it. Spikes currently excel at combating large groups of weaker foes, which seems to be Red Mage's strongest trait right now between spikes and Phalanx.

[Hashmalum]

Unless they could be cast on others, defensive (spike-type) enfeebles would just be another 'toy' spell that wouldn't really help us. Even then they'd face the problem of not stacking with Reprisal, leading to problems with using them with a PLD tank. I'm not really in favor of the idea, it's not terrible but I think that more straightforward enfeebles are better.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Unless they could be cast on others, defensive (spike-type) enfeebles would just be another 'toy' spell that wouldn't really help us. Even then they'd face the problem of not stacking with Reprisal, leading to problems with using them with a PLD tank. I'm not really in favor of the idea, it's not terrible but I think that more straightforward enfeebles are better.

RDM should get no more party enhancing spells until they either get a 5 minute ability to copy their buffs to the party or AoE buffs.

[Ophannus]

WHM gets AoE Heals, it's a healing specialist. BLM gets AoE nukes, it's an elemental nuke specialist.

RDM is a enhancer and enfeebling specialist so why don't we get the AoE Enhancing/Enfeebling spells ><

[Stylin]

WHM gets AoE Heals, it's a healing specialist. BLM gets AoE nukes, it's an elemental nuke specialist.

RDM is a enhancer and enfeebling specialist so why don't we get the AoE Enhancing/Enfeebling spells ><

Diaga is apparently super broken to have.