Relics/Mythics/Empy?

[Theytak]

The problem that everyone advocating adding free relics/mythics/empies to the test server are missing, and that a good part of alha's point is based on, is that the test server as SE has implemented it actually works perfectly fine for testing new content prior to it going live, to find bugs/kinks, find out what drops from what, etc. The reason it works is because the people who use it primarily are all individuals who actually know how to test shit and have the patience required to do so.

The test server isn't designed to hold a massive number of people like a regular, full server. If suddenly, everyone and their mother could access free relics/mythics/empies, the limited number of slots on the test server would get hit by a rush of inane BNS melees who want to play with x/y/z relic/mythic/empy for 15 minutes and then never log on the test server again, thus wasting their slot and lowering the number of productive testers on the server, further exacerbating the only real issue the test server has, a lack of people who know what they're doing. Yea sure, adding free toys will increase the number of PEOPLE, but it won't increase the number of testers, because the people who have the patience to test and the competency to understand what they're testing are few and far between in the playerbase.

Basically, the logic here isn't that what you guys want is necessarily a bad idea in and of itself, but rather the repercussions it will bring. Due to the fact that only about 5~10% of the playerbase will ever actually own a finished relic/mythic/empy, they are a desirable item people want to play with. Thus, while you want this:

Add Them: Those who can test but don't have the weapon on live are able to test them for possible new effects in one last update before they launch, after which they won't likely ever receive any more changes

but what you'll get is this:

Add them: number of slots on the test server ~500; ~50 are occupied by individuals who actively test new material in a proper manner, knowing what they're doing and how to do it, ~450 are occupied by Joe-Shmoe-DomaruSam who log in once or twice to play with a relic/mythic/empy and then never log in again but stay on the test server, preventing any new testers who actually know how to test from getting in.

Additionally, THE TEST SERVER DOES NOT EXIST SO THAT YOU CAN FIND OUT IF GETTING X/Y/Z RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY WEAPON IS WORTH THE EFFORT TO GET/UPGRADE. Any and all arguments attempting to use that as their purpose hold absolutely no water in this discussion, because SE made it pretty clear that the purpose of the test server is to test new content and make sure it all works as intended, and nothing more. The whole reason they made it is their extensive history of breaking all sorts of utterly unrelated crap almost every version update. If you can't find any information about the weapon you want to upgrade, find someone who has it. FFXIAH makes that pretty easy. If you can't find someone who has it, that means no one has bitten the bullet to be the "first" person to get it (I say "first" because while technically, every weapon has now been made, several of them have no information due to the one~two people who made them not being the "test shit and give people answers" type of individual). If you want to know about claustrum (first example that popped into my head after reading the thread), but can't find anyone who has one, then you're left with the option to either stop caring (which would be wise, because lolclaustrum), or to suck it up and upgrade the damn thing yourself.

If SE were to simply say: "Yes, we're adding new/changing/increasing the hidden effects of relic/mythic/empy weapons from level 95 to level 99" or "No, we are not adding new/changing/increasing the hidden effects of relic/mythic/empy weapons from level 95 to level 99" then this entire discussion would become moot. If they say they are, then they're shit they want us to test. If they say they aren't, then there's nothing to test.

[Alhanelem]

Additionally, THE TEST SERVER DOES NOT EXIST SO THAT YOU CAN FIND OUT IF GETTING X/Y/Z RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY WEAPON IS WORTH THE EFFORT TO GET/UPGRADE.

QFT

I Want to know if My kannagi has a major glitch that's going to break it when I upgrade.

Then bring your Kannagi to the test server. If you don't have one, someone else will. There's no reason not to upgrade it because there "might" be a glitch. Even if there is a glitch, it will be found and fixed. It's not like your Kannagi would be permanently ruined.

Which proves another point I also made, that the lack of population leads to inconclusive testing since the content can't be completed with less than 6-36 people

This is why they're giving us god mode.

[FrankReynolds]

You didn't need to write nearly this much to convey what you wanted. Anyways, here goes.

The problem that everyone advocating adding free relics/mythics/empies to the test server are missing, and that a good part of alha's point is based on, is that the test server as SE has implemented it actually works perfectly fine for testing new content prior to it going live, to find bugs/kinks, find out what drops from what, etc. The reason it works is because the people who use it primarily are all individuals who actually know how to test shit and have the patience required to do so.

First of all, you have no idea what they are looking at, how well it's working for them or how well the people using it are suited for the job, because they don't report to you. All this stuff you are stating as fact is actually just how you believe it should be happening. You don't really have anything to back it other than your opinion. FYI bugs/kinks in relics/mythics/emyrians are equally important as bugs with any other item. SE doesn't ignore them just because you don't think they should care.

The test server isn't designed to hold a massive number of people like a regular, full server.

Again, your opinion stated as fact. Unless you work for SE, I call BS on you knowing anything about the design of the test server. At no point has SE stated: "We have no control over how many people log into the test server at once", so this isn't even a real issue. You just invented it.

If suddenly, everyone and their mother could access free relics/mythics/empies, the limited number of slots on the test server would get hit by a rush of inane BNS melees who want to play with x/y/z relic/mythic/empy for 15 minutes and then never log on the test server again, thus wasting their slot and lowering the number of productive testers on the server, further exacerbating the only real issue the test server has, a lack of people who know what they're doing.

Are you a professional game tester? somehow I doubt it. Matter of fact I don't believe you even know exactly what they are testing. Did it ever occur to you that they might actually want people to have fun while testing? Those "inane BNS melees" pay their monthly fees just like you, and they make up a much larger portion of the population than opinionated forum posters. SE has never said that you need to know what your doing in order to fulfill their testing needs. They have paid professional testers for that. They don't have a massive staff of "inane BNS melees", which may be why they opened a test server.

In your theory, the server is overloaded for 15 minutes, and then there is no problem again. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Yea sure, adding free toys will increase the number of PEOPLE, but it won't increase the number of testers, because the people who have the patience to test and the competency to understand what they're testing are few and far between in the playerbase.

So basically, you think your smarter / more important than allllll the other players, and thus should get to decide who is worthy of testing....... great.

Basically, the logic here isn't that what you guys want is necessarily a bad idea in and of itself, but rather the repercussions it will bring. Due to the fact that only about 5~10% of the playerbase will ever actually own a finished relic/mythic/empy, they are a desirable item people want to play with. Thus, while you want this:

Add Them: Those who can test but don't have the weapon on live are able to test them for possible new effects in one last update before they launch, after which they won't likely ever receive any more changes

but what you'll get is this:

Add them: number of slots on the test server ~500; ~50 are occupied by individuals who actively test new material in a proper manner, knowing what they're doing and how to do it, ~450 are occupied by Joe-Shmoe-DomaruSam who log in once or twice to play with a relic/mythic/empy and then never log in again but stay on the test server, preventing any new testers who actually know how to test from getting in.

SE can add / remove people from the test server at will. Just admit that you don't like to share your toys like a grown up.

Additionally, THE TEST SERVER DOES NOT EXIST SO THAT YOU CAN FIND OUT IF GETTING X/Y/Z RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY WEAPON IS WORTH THE EFFORT TO GET/UPGRADE. Any and all arguments attempting to use that as their purpose hold absolutely no water in this discussion, because SE made it pretty clear that the purpose of the test server is to test new content and make sure it all works as intended, and nothing more.

first you spout this ^ nonsense as if you know what they want. FYI just because they want us to test something doesn't mean they don't want us to do anything else. They could severely limit what we can do if they didn't want us to mess around on there. It's a game.

The whole reason they made it is their extensive history of breaking all sorts of utterly unrelated crap almost every version update.

But apparently relics / mythics / empyrians are so powerful that they are immune to SE coding mistakes. Is that an aftermath effect? will it be on all of them? or just some? This will require more testing to be sure its working as intended. Better put them on the test server ASAP.

If you can't find any information about the weapon you want to upgrade, find someone who has it. FFXIAH makes that pretty easy. If you can't find someone who has it, that means no one has bitten the bullet to be the "first" person to get it (I say "first" because while technically, every weapon has now been made, several of them have no information due to the one~two people who made them not being the "test shit and give people answers" type of individual). If you want to know about claustrum (first example that popped into my head after reading the thread), but can't find anyone who has one, then you're left with the option to either stop caring (which would be wise, because lolclaustrum), or to suck it up and upgrade the damn thing yourself.

Says you, but you don't make the game.

If SE were to simply say: "Yes, we're adding new/changing/increasing the hidden effects of relic/mythic/empy weapons from level 95 to level 99" or "No, we are not adding new/changing/increasing the hidden effects of relic/mythic/empy weapons from level 95 to level 99" then this entire discussion would become moot. If they say they are, then they're shit they want us to test. If they say they aren't, then there's nothing to test.

See your above statement. SE doesn't even need to change anything intentionally for it to get messed up. So whether or not they make that statement is irrelevant.

Next time try to be more concise. Giant posts like that just come off as temper tantrums.

[Alhanelem]

So basically, you think your smarter / more important than allllll the other players, and thus should get to decide who is worthy of testing....... great.

That's not what he said. He's not judging anyone in particular directly. However, it is not far from the truth that most people want to see free relics on the test server so they can play with the toys they will never obtain themselves. It's not because they're good or bad players or people, it's only because what they want from the test server isn't what the test server was meant to provide.

[Theytak]

You didn't need to write nearly this much to convey what you wanted. Anyways, here goes.

While the same could be said of you, I'll point out that were I to just make a random assertion and nothing more, I'd basically just be running in, saying I DISAGREE, and leaving, without contributing to the discussion.

First of all, you have no idea what they are looking at, how well it's working for them or how well the people using it are suited for the job, because they don't report to you. All this stuff you are stating as fact is actually just how you believe it should be happening. You don't really have anything to back it other than your opinion. FYI bugs/kinks in relics/mythics/emyrians are equally important as bugs with any other item. SE doesn't ignore them just because you don't think they should care.

...what are you even talking about? That I don't know what the people I referenced are looking at? I do. I read their posts. How else would I be able to reply? Or did you mean that I don't know what the testers are looking at? I would hope I know, given that I'm one of the testers. Or given that I read the forums, specifically this very forum that is designed and used to contain the feedback from the people testing stuff on the test server. Alternatively, you could be referencing SE, and what they want the test server used for, in which case scroll down. Also, FYI, I never said bugs/kinks in relics/mythics/empies aren't important, but they aren't relevant to the players who don't possess said weapons. People who have them will have them on the test server too. I never said SE shouldn't care and I don't think that. Don't put words in my mouth, it makes you look bad.

Again, your opinion stated as fact. Unless you work for SE, I call BS on you knowing anything about the design of the test server. At no point has SE stated: "We have no control over how many people log into the test server at once", so this isn't even a real issue. You just invented it.

"The maximum number of participants and requirements will depend on each test. Once the number of participants is reached, applications will close." - Quote, Foxclon

They said there's a maximum number of participants, implying that there are, indeed, a limited number of tester slots. I'm not sure how that's an opinion.

Are you a professional game tester? somehow I doubt it. Matter of fact I don't believe you even know exactly what they are testing. Did it ever occur to you that they might actually want people to have fun while testing? Those "inane BNS melees" pay their monthly fees just like you, and they make up a much larger portion of the population than opinionated forum posters. SE has never said that you need to know what your doing in order to fulfill their testing needs. They have paid professional testers for that. They don't have a massive staff of "inane BNS melees", which may be why they opened a test server.

Am I a professional game tester? No. I do know why they are testing, (again, scroll down). Do you have any idea what testing entails? And did I ever say the IBMs don't pay their monthly fee? I don't even see how that's relevant. It doesn't change the fact that they don't understand the game's mechanics nor proper methodology for testing new content for bugs. IBMs are the reason why people, for example, swore Provoke was modified by charisma. They just eyeball shit and make absolutely wild guesses and then try and pass them off as truth with no evidence. That's the kind of crap we don't need coming out of the test server.

No, SE never said you had to have half a brain to be on the test server, but if the test server were full of IBMs, you wouldn't know anything at all about the new content except crap like "this new spell looked cool", "this one does a lot of damage" (never specifying a number, or what they were fighting, etc), "Ugh, the new trials suck". That's not my opinion, btw, I'm basically summarizing 7 years experience of Version Update Day. First people to log on post random uselessly vague crap, but nothing else, until the people who knew what they were doing gave actual info.

In your theory, the server is overloaded for 15 minutes, and then there is no problem again. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

The problem isn't when they're all online, it's that because they are signed up for the test server, and that there is a maximum participant count, they prevent people who would actually actively test shit from getting in.

So basically, you think your smarter / more important than allllll the other players, and thus should get to decide who is worthy of testing....... great.

........I know five year olds smarter than half the people who play this game. Do you not read the forums or watch the shouts in jeuno? "Atma of the Sea Daughter is awesome for DD because the slow isn't a problem!" as an example. Seriously, go read the ffxiclopedia forums or the FFXIAH forums some time, there are so many people who know absolutely nothing about the game it's painful. And it's not just nerdy crap either, I've met people in PUGs that would make a high school drop out look like a savant.

first you spout this ^ nonsense as if you know what they want. FYI just because they want us to test something doesn't mean they don't want us to do anything else. They could severely limit what we can do if they didn't want us to mess around on there. It's a game.

"Furthermore, as the server will focus on still-in-development content and features" - Quote, Hiromichi Tanaka


"The FINAL FANTASY XI Test Server is a special server dedicated to testing various features that are in development for future version updates. " - Quote, Foxclon

oh, and there's this handy forum that contains threads about exactly what they're adding to the test server for us to test.

But apparently relics / mythics / empyrians are so powerful that they are immune to SE coding mistakes. Is that an aftermath effect? will it be on all of them? or just some? This will require more testing to be sure its working as intended. Better put them on the test server ASAP.

Honestly, I can't remember any time a relic/mythic/empy has been broken aside from that one time with Apoc. I don't frequent BG though, nor do I know anyone who's had a relic for a long time, so I may just not be informed. But again, problems related to relics can be found and tested by people who have relics. They don't affect 90% of the players, so the players who aren't in that 10% shouldn't waste their time doing something that the 10% is fully capable of doing themselves. That is my opinion though.

Says you, but you don't make the game.

um... ok. I know you are but what am I? I'm well aware of the fact that I'm not a member of the Dev team, thank you captain obvious.

Next time try to be more concise. Giant posts like that just come off as temper tantrums.

Next time, try not to be such a douche, and try not to sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're going to wait for testing by others on most of the mage mythics, you'll be waiting for a very long time.

[Kitkat]

Find it interesting both of you latch to the singular point of "relic/mythic/emp" as being the only reason for adding them. It is only a secondary objective behind an attempt to even get more of a population on the test server to begin with. Instead you both would rather latch to this one point and ride it like it is a substantial argument when it isn't.

You think people are going to jump on the server to play with a weapon for 15 min then never log on again. Guess what, this already happens. Well over 100, but less than 150 are on the test server after new content is added, but they log on and test only the stuff related to jobs they care about and never log on again. Then out of a 100~150 only 20-25 actually continue to log on sparingly to further test beyond just the jobs they care about. Thing is, in an active online presence these people only tend to be on 10-15 at a time with 5-7 of them AFK and the others testing solo things.

If you can't find any information about the weapon you want to upgrade, find someone who has it. FFXIAH makes that pretty easy. If you can't find someone who has it, that means no one has bitten the bullet to be the "first" person to get it (I say "first" because while technically, every weapon has now been made, several of them have no information due to the one~two people who made them not being the "test shit and give people answers" type of individual). If you want to know about claustrum (first example that popped into my head after reading the thread), but can't find anyone who has one, then you're left with the option to either stop caring (which would be wise, because lolclaustrum), or to suck it up and upgrade the damn thing yourself.

Again.....for the fourth time, your point about a weapon on the test server is based on pre-existing changes already live on all servers. The reasoning behind adding the weapons is about updated content that is going to be added to the weapons. This has been found/verified through dat mining both by NA and JP communities, to have an effect called "afterglow" that no one knows anything about because it is new. This concept actually goes hand in hand with what you posted in relation to

"Furthermore, as the server will focus on still-in-development content and features" - Quote, Hiromichi Tanaka


"The FINAL FANTASY XI Test Server is a special server dedicated to testing various features that are in development for future version updates. " - Quote, Foxclon

oh, and there's this handy forum that contains threads about exactly what they're adding to the test server for us to test.

It is updated content. Added to the test server, before going live, thus part of the "under development" testing phase regardless to how you conceive it otherwise. If it is added to the test server prior to going live then SE is putting it there for further testing. The true problem is the ability to test it. I'd also like to point out that there have been various additions to the test server over the time it has been out that was never announced, and because we weren't specifically told to test it...it later resulted in fixes or emergency maintenance.

And since you like quoting verbatim lets bring this up too:
Source

If it is determined that you have no intention of participating in the test server, your participation privileges will be revoked.

Then bring your Kannagi to the test server. If you don't have one, someone else will. There's no reason not to upgrade it because there "might" be a glitch. Even if there is a glitch, it will be found and fixed. It's not like your Kannagi would be permanently ruined.

Further expanding on your "ask someone who knows" ideal, the test server reacts the same way as live servers currently in reference to trials to upgrade. Some of these trials require more than one person to complete and several days to weeks worth of work. Test server doesn't support the population to do that thus your point about "Asking someone who has it already" is made null and void by the fact it can't be done.

This is why they're giving us god mode.

Test servers new battle content:
Player activates god mode and solos new VWNM or similar battles instances.
Player takes 0 damage and is immune to effects.
NM uses unknown TP moves.
Player takes no damage or receives no ill effects.

Content goes live and god mode is gone
People complain about NM hitting far harder than it should.
Further complaints arise due to how proc system works, but current VWNM setups run into issues completing content because of NM behavior being above normal Difficulty.
Additional complaints arise due to certain battle conditions breaking expected outcomes that weren't tested because test server god mode = easy mode = lazy mode.

So, your "god mode" answer to low population has just as many problems compared to SE just allowing access to relic/mythic/emp weapons. It would be wiser to stimulate a population in oder to test the content as it is meant to function, rather than catering to low population by throwing out god mode, since it would allow the content to be tested accurately.

By both of your argument basis SE shouldn't offer ANYTHING via the GM moogle but expendable items that BST, rng, or any nin or similar dependent job needs to function. All other items should be abolished because it isn't part of the test content and people should just "make due with what they have."

Then again this creates problems for the synergist who are, or may, test if higher synergy skill results in better augments than are currently known so then you piss them off by limiting their ability to test changes in this aspect.

Honestly, I'm failing to see anything in your argument that has any substantial basis, as to why this shouldn't be allowed, because almost every point you try to make either already happens or would benifit the test server as it would increase overall test data for all content rather than what people are able to do with a low population currently.

[FrankReynolds]

While the same could be said of you, I'll point out that were I to just make a random assertion and nothing more, I'd basically just be running in, saying I DISAGREE, and leaving, without contributing to the discussion.

that would have been better than spamming a whole page with nonsense.

...what are you even talking about? That I don't know what the people I referenced are looking at? I do. I read their posts. How else would I be able to reply? Or did you mean that I don't know what the testers are looking at? I would hope I know, given that I'm one of the testers. Or given that I read the forums, specifically this very forum that is designed and used to contain the feedback from the people testing stuff on the test server. Alternatively, you could be referencing SE, and what they want the test server used for, in which case scroll down. Also, FYI, I never said bugs/kinks in relics/mythics/empies aren't important, but they aren't relevant to the players who don't possess said weapons. People who have them will have them on the test server too. I never said SE shouldn't care and I don't think that. Don't put words in my mouth, it makes you look bad.

Yes I'm talking about SE. You don't know anymore about what they are looking at than anyone else posting here. You just think you do. They could easily cut everything that has not been changed out of the test server, and only allow people to use very specific gear / functions on the test server. They don't. Go figure. And yes, by saying that SE shouldn't give people the weapons to test, you are implying that they don't care about what changes have been made to them. Not everyone has an empyrian etc. Even less care to test them. Of those that do test them, Most will not post on this forum. Do the math. More weapons = more testing. I didn't put words in your mouth. You are doing that quite well.

"The maximum number of participants and requirements will depend on each test. Once the number of participants is reached, applications will close." - Quote, Foxclon

They said there's a maximum number of participants, implying that there are, indeed, a limited number of tester slots. I'm not sure how that's an opinion.

Notice that at no point did foxclon say: "and we will not be able to add more ever, or remove testers who are not logging in, so you guys better be trained professionals."

Thats because they can, and they will.

Am I a professional game tester? No. I do know why they are testing, (again, scroll down). Do you have any idea what testing entails? And did I ever say the IBMs don't pay their monthly fee? I don't even see how that's relevant. It doesn't change the fact that they don't understand the game's mechanics nor proper methodology for testing new content for bugs. IBMs are the reason why people, for example, swore Provoke was modified by charisma. They just eyeball shit and make absolutely wild guesses and then try and pass them off as truth with no evidence. That's the kind of crap we don't need coming out of the test server.

No, SE never said you had to have half a brain to be on the test server, but if the test server were full of IBMs, you wouldn't know anything at all about the new content except crap like "this new spell looked cool", "this one does a lot of damage" (never specifying a number, or what they were fighting, etc), "Ugh, the new trials suck". That's not my opinion, btw, I'm basically summarizing 7 years experience of Version Update Day. First people to log on post random uselessly vague crap, but nothing else, until the people who knew what they were doing gave actual info.

Go back and listen to your own Bile. Your the one who said: "THE TEST SERVER DOES NOT EXIST SO THAT YOU CAN FIND OUT IF GETTING X/Y/Z RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY WEAPON IS WORTH THE EFFORT TO GET/UPGRADE."

What makes you think they care if you figure out how provoke or anything else works?

They just need you to use as much stuff, in as many situations as possible, so THEY can see if it works how THEY want it to. They don't care if you even know if it is working right. If they did, they could easily post all the game formulas.

The problem isn't when they're all online, it's that because they are signed up for the test server, and that there is a maximum participant count, they prevent people who would actually actively test shit from getting in.

Again, they can remove / add all the testers they want. They own the server. They can even add more test periods if they feel they need more data.

........I know five year olds smarter than half the people who play this game. Do you not read the forums or watch the shouts in jeuno? "Atma of the Sea Daughter is awesome for DD because the slow isn't a problem!" as an example. Seriously, go read the ffxiclopedia forums or the FFXIAH forums some time, there are so many people who know absolutely nothing about the game it's painful. And it's not just nerdy crap either, I've met people in PUGs that would make a high school drop out look like a savant.

Sometimes those are the best testers. They break things by doing things that no sane man would ever think to do.

In all those links they just tell you that you can test new stuff that is being added and post your findings. At no point do they say that that is the only way they can get data from the test (they can parse / observe just about anything if they want). Nor do they say that that is the ONLY thing they are collecting data on. Obviously new content is most important, but that doesn't mean that everything else in the game should be untested.

Honestly, I can't remember any time a relic/mythic/empy has been broken aside from that one time with Apoc. I don't frequent BG though, nor do I know anyone who's had a relic for a long time, so I may just not be informed. But again, problems related to relics can be found and tested by people who have relics. They don't affect 90% of the players, so the players who aren't in that 10% shouldn't waste their time doing something that the 10% is fully capable of doing themselves. That is my opinion though.

Again... SE is testing whether or not the weapons function correctly. A non relic owner is far more likely to point it out if final heaven suddenly starts doing 25k damage. Actual owners may be more tempted to keep that on the low.

um... ok. I know you are but what am I? I'm well aware of the fact that I'm not a member of the Dev team, thank you captain obvious.

I just had to point that out because you seem to think you are some sort of an authority on everything SE does.

Next time, try not to be such a douche, and try not to sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

I do what I want. Cry if it makes you feel better.

[Alhanelem]

and we will not be able to add more ever, or remove testers who are not logging in

Actually, the terms of the test server do say they can remove people who sign up but never participate.

A non relic owner is far more likely to point it out if final heaven suddenly starts doing 25k damage.

Relic weapons are not the only way to use the relic weapon skills. They are available as latents on a set of easy to obtain weapons.

[Theytak]

God, it's like talking to a brick wall... how have you managed to keep your sanity for 8 pages, alhan?