Relics/Mythics/Empy?

[FrankReynolds]

While the same could be said of you, I'll point out that were I to just make a random assertion and nothing more, I'd basically just be running in, saying I DISAGREE, and leaving, without contributing to the discussion.

that would have been better than spamming a whole page with nonsense.

...what are you even talking about? That I don't know what the people I referenced are looking at? I do. I read their posts. How else would I be able to reply? Or did you mean that I don't know what the testers are looking at? I would hope I know, given that I'm one of the testers. Or given that I read the forums, specifically this very forum that is designed and used to contain the feedback from the people testing stuff on the test server. Alternatively, you could be referencing SE, and what they want the test server used for, in which case scroll down. Also, FYI, I never said bugs/kinks in relics/mythics/empies aren't important, but they aren't relevant to the players who don't possess said weapons. People who have them will have them on the test server too. I never said SE shouldn't care and I don't think that. Don't put words in my mouth, it makes you look bad.

Yes I'm talking about SE. You don't know anymore about what they are looking at than anyone else posting here. You just think you do. They could easily cut everything that has not been changed out of the test server, and only allow people to use very specific gear / functions on the test server. They don't. Go figure. And yes, by saying that SE shouldn't give people the weapons to test, you are implying that they don't care about what changes have been made to them. Not everyone has an empyrian etc. Even less care to test them. Of those that do test them, Most will not post on this forum. Do the math. More weapons = more testing. I didn't put words in your mouth. You are doing that quite well.

"The maximum number of participants and requirements will depend on each test. Once the number of participants is reached, applications will close." - Quote, Foxclon

They said there's a maximum number of participants, implying that there are, indeed, a limited number of tester slots. I'm not sure how that's an opinion.

Notice that at no point did foxclon say: "and we will not be able to add more ever, or remove testers who are not logging in, so you guys better be trained professionals."

Thats because they can, and they will.

Am I a professional game tester? No. I do know why they are testing, (again, scroll down). Do you have any idea what testing entails? And did I ever say the IBMs don't pay their monthly fee? I don't even see how that's relevant. It doesn't change the fact that they don't understand the game's mechanics nor proper methodology for testing new content for bugs. IBMs are the reason why people, for example, swore Provoke was modified by charisma. They just eyeball shit and make absolutely wild guesses and then try and pass them off as truth with no evidence. That's the kind of crap we don't need coming out of the test server.

No, SE never said you had to have half a brain to be on the test server, but if the test server were full of IBMs, you wouldn't know anything at all about the new content except crap like "this new spell looked cool", "this one does a lot of damage" (never specifying a number, or what they were fighting, etc), "Ugh, the new trials suck". That's not my opinion, btw, I'm basically summarizing 7 years experience of Version Update Day. First people to log on post random uselessly vague crap, but nothing else, until the people who knew what they were doing gave actual info.

Go back and listen to your own Bile. Your the one who said: "THE TEST SERVER DOES NOT EXIST SO THAT YOU CAN FIND OUT IF GETTING X/Y/Z RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY WEAPON IS WORTH THE EFFORT TO GET/UPGRADE."

What makes you think they care if you figure out how provoke or anything else works?

They just need you to use as much stuff, in as many situations as possible, so THEY can see if it works how THEY want it to. They don't care if you even know if it is working right. If they did, they could easily post all the game formulas.

The problem isn't when they're all online, it's that because they are signed up for the test server, and that there is a maximum participant count, they prevent people who would actually actively test shit from getting in.

Again, they can remove / add all the testers they want. They own the server. They can even add more test periods if they feel they need more data.

........I know five year olds smarter than half the people who play this game. Do you not read the forums or watch the shouts in jeuno? "Atma of the Sea Daughter is awesome for DD because the slow isn't a problem!" as an example. Seriously, go read the ffxiclopedia forums or the FFXIAH forums some time, there are so many people who know absolutely nothing about the game it's painful. And it's not just nerdy crap either, I've met people in PUGs that would make a high school drop out look like a savant.

Sometimes those are the best testers. They break things by doing things that no sane man would ever think to do.

In all those links they just tell you that you can test new stuff that is being added and post your findings. At no point do they say that that is the only way they can get data from the test (they can parse / observe just about anything if they want). Nor do they say that that is the ONLY thing they are collecting data on. Obviously new content is most important, but that doesn't mean that everything else in the game should be untested.

Honestly, I can't remember any time a relic/mythic/empy has been broken aside from that one time with Apoc. I don't frequent BG though, nor do I know anyone who's had a relic for a long time, so I may just not be informed. But again, problems related to relics can be found and tested by people who have relics. They don't affect 90% of the players, so the players who aren't in that 10% shouldn't waste their time doing something that the 10% is fully capable of doing themselves. That is my opinion though.

Again... SE is testing whether or not the weapons function correctly. A non relic owner is far more likely to point it out if final heaven suddenly starts doing 25k damage. Actual owners may be more tempted to keep that on the low.

um... ok. I know you are but what am I? I'm well aware of the fact that I'm not a member of the Dev team, thank you captain obvious.

I just had to point that out because you seem to think you are some sort of an authority on everything SE does.

Next time, try not to be such a douche, and try not to sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

I do what I want. Cry if it makes you feel better.

[Alhanelem]

Additionally, THE TEST SERVER DOES NOT EXIST SO THAT YOU CAN FIND OUT IF GETTING X/Y/Z RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY WEAPON IS WORTH THE EFFORT TO GET/UPGRADE.

QFT

I Want to know if My kannagi has a major glitch that's going to break it when I upgrade.

Then bring your Kannagi to the test server. If you don't have one, someone else will. There's no reason not to upgrade it because there "might" be a glitch. Even if there is a glitch, it will be found and fixed. It's not like your Kannagi would be permanently ruined.

Which proves another point I also made, that the lack of population leads to inconclusive testing since the content can't be completed with less than 6-36 people

This is why they're giving us god mode.

[Alhanelem]

So basically, you think your smarter / more important than allllll the other players, and thus should get to decide who is worthy of testing....... great.

That's not what he said. He's not judging anyone in particular directly. However, it is not far from the truth that most people want to see free relics on the test server so they can play with the toys they will never obtain themselves. It's not because they're good or bad players or people, it's only because what they want from the test server isn't what the test server was meant to provide.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're going to wait for testing by others on most of the mage mythics, you'll be waiting for a very long time.

[Kitkat]

Find it interesting both of you latch to the singular point of "relic/mythic/emp" as being the only reason for adding them. It is only a secondary objective behind an attempt to even get more of a population on the test server to begin with. Instead you both would rather latch to this one point and ride it like it is a substantial argument when it isn't.

You think people are going to jump on the server to play with a weapon for 15 min then never log on again. Guess what, this already happens. Well over 100, but less than 150 are on the test server after new content is added, but they log on and test only the stuff related to jobs they care about and never log on again. Then out of a 100~150 only 20-25 actually continue to log on sparingly to further test beyond just the jobs they care about. Thing is, in an active online presence these people only tend to be on 10-15 at a time with 5-7 of them AFK and the others testing solo things.

If you can't find any information about the weapon you want to upgrade, find someone who has it. FFXIAH makes that pretty easy. If you can't find someone who has it, that means no one has bitten the bullet to be the "first" person to get it (I say "first" because while technically, every weapon has now been made, several of them have no information due to the one~two people who made them not being the "test shit and give people answers" type of individual). If you want to know about claustrum (first example that popped into my head after reading the thread), but can't find anyone who has one, then you're left with the option to either stop caring (which would be wise, because lolclaustrum), or to suck it up and upgrade the damn thing yourself.

Again.....for the fourth time, your point about a weapon on the test server is based on pre-existing changes already live on all servers. The reasoning behind adding the weapons is about updated content that is going to be added to the weapons. This has been found/verified through dat mining both by NA and JP communities, to have an effect called "afterglow" that no one knows anything about because it is new. This concept actually goes hand in hand with what you posted in relation to

"Furthermore, as the server will focus on still-in-development content and features" - Quote, Hiromichi Tanaka


"The FINAL FANTASY XI Test Server is a special server dedicated to testing various features that are in development for future version updates. " - Quote, Foxclon

oh, and there's this handy forum that contains threads about exactly what they're adding to the test server for us to test.

It is updated content. Added to the test server, before going live, thus part of the "under development" testing phase regardless to how you conceive it otherwise. If it is added to the test server prior to going live then SE is putting it there for further testing. The true problem is the ability to test it. I'd also like to point out that there have been various additions to the test server over the time it has been out that was never announced, and because we weren't specifically told to test it...it later resulted in fixes or emergency maintenance.

And since you like quoting verbatim lets bring this up too:
Source

If it is determined that you have no intention of participating in the test server, your participation privileges will be revoked.

Then bring your Kannagi to the test server. If you don't have one, someone else will. There's no reason not to upgrade it because there "might" be a glitch. Even if there is a glitch, it will be found and fixed. It's not like your Kannagi would be permanently ruined.

Further expanding on your "ask someone who knows" ideal, the test server reacts the same way as live servers currently in reference to trials to upgrade. Some of these trials require more than one person to complete and several days to weeks worth of work. Test server doesn't support the population to do that thus your point about "Asking someone who has it already" is made null and void by the fact it can't be done.

This is why they're giving us god mode.

Test servers new battle content:
Player activates god mode and solos new VWNM or similar battles instances.
Player takes 0 damage and is immune to effects.
NM uses unknown TP moves.
Player takes no damage or receives no ill effects.

Content goes live and god mode is gone
People complain about NM hitting far harder than it should.
Further complaints arise due to how proc system works, but current VWNM setups run into issues completing content because of NM behavior being above normal Difficulty.
Additional complaints arise due to certain battle conditions breaking expected outcomes that weren't tested because test server god mode = easy mode = lazy mode.

So, your "god mode" answer to low population has just as many problems compared to SE just allowing access to relic/mythic/emp weapons. It would be wiser to stimulate a population in oder to test the content as it is meant to function, rather than catering to low population by throwing out god mode, since it would allow the content to be tested accurately.

By both of your argument basis SE shouldn't offer ANYTHING via the GM moogle but expendable items that BST, rng, or any nin or similar dependent job needs to function. All other items should be abolished because it isn't part of the test content and people should just "make due with what they have."

Then again this creates problems for the synergist who are, or may, test if higher synergy skill results in better augments than are currently known so then you piss them off by limiting their ability to test changes in this aspect.

Honestly, I'm failing to see anything in your argument that has any substantial basis, as to why this shouldn't be allowed, because almost every point you try to make either already happens or would benifit the test server as it would increase overall test data for all content rather than what people are able to do with a low population currently.

[Alhanelem]

and we will not be able to add more ever, or remove testers who are not logging in

Actually, the terms of the test server do say they can remove people who sign up but never participate.

A non relic owner is far more likely to point it out if final heaven suddenly starts doing 25k damage.

Relic weapons are not the only way to use the relic weapon skills. They are available as latents on a set of easy to obtain weapons.

[FrankReynolds]

Actually, the terms of the test server do say they can remove people who sign up but never participate.

I know, that's what I said, if you read the whole sentence you quoted.

Relic weapons are not the only way to use the relic weapon skills. They are available as latents on a set of easy to obtain weapons.

same damage, aftermath and all that? wow, that's cool.

[Theytak]

God, it's like talking to a brick wall... how have you managed to keep your sanity for 8 pages, alhan?

[Kitkat]

God, it's like talking to a brick wall... how have you managed to keep your sanity for 8 pages, alhan?

Using the idiom "Like talking to a brick wall" dictates that nothing has been heard, which is not what is happening here. What is happening is you and Alhan are bringing up points that are taken out of context, misconstrued, or bring up points that can, and have been, redirected.

Both of you state "If it isn't on the under development sub-forum it isn't under testing" when there is various aspects added on the test server updates that aren't mentioned on these also.

Then there is "If it doesn't need testing then it isn't going to be there" which can be countered by the fact there is already things that are available to users which don't need to be tested. From weapons to armors, a person who normally runs around in pink gear can already get on the test server and get emp+2 gear, Relic gear, Rare/ex weapons, WoE weapons, etc. None of this is under development but is available making your argument rather invalid in this aspect.

This brings us to your next point "Just ask someone who already has it to test it for you" which has little reality to it when those of us who do have it, can't test it due to population issues. More accurately, the lack thereof. Flowing into you next response of "If these are available then the server will be flooded with people who will log on for 15min to play with them then never log on again" of which already occurs making this totally moot while assuming an awful lot also (Remember the anecdote behind "assume" When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me). Not to mention it clearly states in the sign up process that if they find out you have no intention of testing out the content your access to the server can and will be revoked to free up space for those who will. I also fail to see how a running population, on average, of 10 active people can test everything accurately.

And then the fun of "They are adding invincible mode because of the population issues." As stated before in regards to other already available "toys" on the test server this is equally attached also. In addition to this, depending on how the god mode actually works (from working like invincible for all damage to simply increasing stats to cap like brew, or possibly making it impossible to fall under 1hp) there comes other problems. If it does work like invincible and nullifies all damage, then without being kamikaze how can the content be tested accurately? The only way to counter the issues of giving a god mode to players is to make it more like an immortal mode. Damage, effects, etc still land with visible numbers in chat log, but it is impossible to die/drop under X amount of hp. If it only functions as a null to all damage sources without showing how much the damage actually is, who is to say if the content is unbalanced. Further more there are various battle tactics people use every day that 1-3 people can't test. Why? Because they are limited to the jobs they are on and in most cases can't test these in conjunction with other abilities/effects due to limited number of people participating, thus there are untested aspect of the content still existing with the possibility to break on live servers.

How is taking any point you bring up and logically countering it with various forms of information relating to, not just the test server itself, but bringing up the fact that various other things have broken that were not under development or were not even remotely attached to the updates in any shape or form? An example I can clearly recall is during CoP when Worms had an unexpected break when the effect of silence was cast on them. They suddenly had the ability to run around like other mobs. No changes to worms or silence took place in the update, but it still broke. How about the old Delivery box duplication exploit that SE had no idea about because it was never tested in the way it created duplications. The reason behind this is that users did something completely unexpected. Another example is caps you could fish up in rabao, use in a low level cloth synth, then resell to an NPC for greater than expected gil gains. More recently is the cure effect on undead doing 9999 damage when no noticeable changes were made to cures at all from their pre-existing versions.

The testing of content is to allow users from an everyday usage pool to not just make sure the content is working, but to ensure it has no exploits that could be abused to otherwise make fights too easy, or that it doesn't cause already tested content to unexpectedly break. The reason from this is that general population will use this in unexpected ways that a developer would not expect during the coding process. With the lack of coding in this scenario the content either doesn't work or breaks unexpectedly causing unwanted results.

With this, your "talking to a brick wall" idiom is out of place since your points are being taken and redirected rather than flat out ignored. This is a debate, either you bring something to the table to further prove your cause, or you find ways to squash the opposing view by showing it is over biased or too narrow in scope related to the topic at hand. It isn't a hard concept to grasp, just bring up substantial opposing views that can't be refuted.

[Alhanelem]

God, it's like talking to a brick wall... how have you managed to keep your sanity for 8 pages, alhan?

It doesn't really bother me that much. I have my opinion and I will be very vocal about it, but I don't hate anyone else for disagreeing.

I can undestand the argument that anything that gets more people on the test server is a good thing, however, my perception, given the status of the relic weapons, is that the people who want to "test them"

1) do not have relic weapons of their own and their only interest in going on the test srever is to experience these weapons without having gone through the effort to obtain them, and
2)Such people are only interested in doing the above, and are less likely to test anything else or even report their findings or issues here. The only thing increasing the likelihood of reporting issues with at least the relics is the fact that you must be registered on these forums in order to participate. If it weren't for that condition, my faith would be barely more than zero that any good could possibly come out of it.

Now we have mew weaponskills to test, which should divert even more attention from relics and relic WS, because we have totally new WS which need to be tested and have the kinks hammered out (Only problem is right now, they're nonfunctional due to likely the same problem with the new rolls/pacts). It will be a lot more vaulable to SE if, when they are useable, that you devote time to these.

same damage, aftermath and all that? wow, that's cool.

The catch is in the latent. You have to perform a number of other weapon skills, and after doing so, the relic weaponskill is activated for one use (then you have to charge it up again). However, these are easy drops off of various NMs in abyssea (Get them on the live server and then re-copy your character, if you can't solo them)