Relics/Mythics/Empy?

[Kitkat]

No, i'm being the level-headed, productive person who wants a test server to accomplish it's purpose- to test the content the devs want us to test. You are analogizing apples and oranges, but it's more like using the pickup truck vs asking for the keys to the Ferrari. You don't need the Ferrari to get the job done.

You aren't really being level headed at all since you are focusing on one primary point actually. A level headed individual takes a unilateral and unbiased approach to come to a distinct conclusion. Your primary points actually dictate you have a very one sided view on the subject and is shown by how eagerly you dismiss apposing views on it.

Your analogy is worse than mine actually. Trucks serve far different purposes from a Ferrari. If you wanted to use vehicles to express an analogy of relic/myth/emps it would be more akin to a base model of a car to the same model with all the bells and whistles, the only difference being that emp/myth/relics are just different makes (chevy/ford/dodge). Each offering something different, bells and whistles wise, to accommodate being useful over one another. Anyway, moving away from the analogies for now.

The test server is in essence a big play ground with a plethora of toys at an individuals grasp. Relic/emp/mythic weapons would be no more different than the fact SE is planning to give invincibility for testing purpose later on in the terms of "play things." The biggest functional difference between this being that on Live servers (non-test servers) the weapons will still exist where as the invincibility won't. Allowing people the toys to play with doesn't necessarily negate their ability to test the actual content of the game either.

I have both a relic (mandau) and an emp (almace) but you know what? They don't really see much use on the test server because there isn't enough like minded people on the server at a given time to fully test the content being added when it comes to WoE or VWNM. The purpose of a test server is for an individual to test it anyway, and everyway, possible to be sure that one minor thing doesn't break an intended outcome of the content. You've also constantly dismissed the fact that the weapons are undergoing constant increases in their functions, from base damage, to additional stats, to additional hidden effects. Dat mining sources show that there is possibly a very big change coming to relic/mythic/emps in what is being called "afterglow/aftercircle." Depending on how this effect works, it could possibly be unbalancing in content. In most cases this never gets the chance to be tested by those with the weapons because...well they need help or high quantities of an item to upgrade it on the test server. There is no simple way to upgrade it to the next stage on the test server, thus "just let the holders of the weapons find out for you" becomes a moot point.

The test server was made to test things, not limit an individual or tell them to use what they have. If this were the case, there wouldn't be moogles to give you better than what you have already (AF3+2, WoE, Rare/EX weapons, Salvage gear, Abjuration+1 gear, etc). Once again, the weapons themselves are going under changes from 95-99, thus are part of the test content. The weapons will not give anymore of an advantage to an individual than the proposed invincibility they plan to add to the test server. The opportunity to have a higher population for group related testing outweighs any advantages the weapons may give since it is better than not having the population to test content with at all. The only aspect of your debate I see is "They are toys and unnecessary" and that is true, but everything the GM moogle offers can be given the same point making your entire objection to allowing an individual to have access to the weapons moot on this basis alone.

[Atomic_Skull]

wall-o-text

Well I didn't read most of that because I couldn't be bothered to read the huge wall of text but if the GM Moogle starts handing out relics and emps the test server will be flooded with people who are not interested in testing.

Next time try being more concise and to the point instead of trying to bury people under a mountain of words.

[Kitkat]

Well I didn't read most of that because I couldn't be bothered to read the huge wall of text but if the GM Moogle starts handing out relics and emps the test server will be flooded with people who are not interested in testing.

Next time try being more concise and to the point instead of trying to bury people under a mountain of words.

Rather naive response considering there is hardly ever more than 20 on the test server as is. If there were upwards of a couple hundred on the test server then your point would be valid, but this isn't the case. Instead of people actually testing the full extent of the content, we are seeing people log on a handful of times, check out some of the new spells/abilites, and check some npc then log off and share what little they were able to learn on their own with the community. A vast amount of the information ends up coming from dat mining, and rarely do enough pool together to test the group related content because there are too few on actually interested in doing so.

Low data means inaccurate conclusions and greater possiblity for error. A larger population would lower the gap of the errors in conclusions reached during testing thus lead to a lower likely hood of emergency maintenance after an update. The game is reaching over a decade old, the novelty of end-line weapons would be short lived. The person would be more likely to stay for further testing opportunities knowing their chances of getting a group for the activity is higher rather than lower.

Seriously, you guys need to get a better hook-line than "It'll be flooded" since that isn't necessarily a bad thing considering the current constant population on the test servers. Obviously, if I log on during various times through the day and the constant average is ~17, there obviously isn't a problem with over population. More so the opposite:

[FrankReynolds]

Rather naive response considering there is hardly ever more than 20 on the test server as is. If there were upwards of a couple hundred on the test server then your point would be valid, but this isn't the case. Instead of people actually testing the full extent of the content, we are seeing people log on a handful of times, check out some of the new spells/abilites, and check some npc then log off and share what little they were able to learn on their own with the community. A vast amount of the information ends up coming from dat mining, and rarely do enough pool together to test the group related content because there are too few on actually interested in doing so.

Low data means inaccurate conclusions and greater possiblity for error. A larger population would lower the gap of the errors in conclusions reached during testing thus lead to a lower likely hood of emergency maintenance after an update. The game is reaching over a decade old, the novelty of end-line weapons would be short lived. The person would be more likely to stay for further testing opportunities knowing their chances of getting a group for the activity is higher rather than lower.

Seriously, you guys need to get a better hook-line than "It'll be flooded" since that isn't necessarily a bad thing considering the current constant population on the test servers. Obviously, if I log on during various times through the day and the constant average is ~17, there obviously isn't a problem with over population. More so the opposite:

NOWAI! if you give them relics, the server will suddenly have 10,000 players all log on at once and blow up the world. Then they will all quit because they feel like having the relic for 10 seconds before the world exploded was all they needed. The game will be ruined. Plus.... they don't need to test relics etc. Everyone already has a 99 relic / mythic / empyrian and they are out testing them now for your enjoyment... ohh wait....

[Raksha]

If i'm not mistaken, someone did complete the mythic axe after the date of the census data.

Way to miss the point.

[SNK]

Well I didn't read most of that because I couldn't be bothered to read the huge wall of text but if the GM Moogle starts handing out relics and emps the test server will be flooded with people who are not interested in testing.

Next time try being more concise and to the point instead of trying to bury people under a mountain of words.

'

Wait... what?

[Alhanelem]

Your analogy is worse than mine actually. Trucks serve far different purposes from a Ferrari.

That's the whole point. The truck is used for getting work done, while the Ferrari is an expensive toy. Playing with the expensive toy isn't going to help the overall goal of the test server any more than the truck, which gets the job done right without needing the glitter and glamour. The trucks are also more widely available than the Ferraris.

They don't really see much use on the test server because there isn't enough like minded people on the server at a given time to fully test the content being added when it comes to WoE or VWNM.

Why do you need a bunch of "like minded people" and fight the listed fights in order to test for new/changed hidden effects on relic weapons? Can't you do that on any monster? If you have the weapons you say you have, you shouldn't have any trouble testing them out. On that note, if you made a point of asking for assistance, I'm sure I or anyone else here would be happy to lend you a hand. Then on top of that, they'll be introducing an invincibility command so you don't have to worry about dying while you test the crap out of whatever you need to test. I did the new final flux with like 2 other people. Obviously we couldn't win it, but we were still able to test things out. All you have to do is plan ahead a little.

Next time try being more concise and to the point instead of trying to bury people under a mountain of words.

No offense Atomic, but if you can't be bothered to read a "wall of text," then you shouldn't bother yourself with commenting on it. Not every point can be expressed in one or two lines of text.

[Kitkat]

That's the whole point. The truck is used for getting work done, while the Ferrari is an expensive toy. Playing with the expensive toy isn't going to help the overall goal of the test server any more than the truck, which gets the job done right without needing the glitter and glamour. The trucks are also more widely available than the Ferraris.

Thing is, these weapons are just the trucks with bells and whistles. There is only a mild difference in performance between a base weapon user and a relic weapon user. Your analogy dictates that an individual has been given the keys to a vehicle that has no real utility/functionality and is just an expensive toy. That is all a Ferrari is..an expensive toy with no utility/function other than to look good. You can't even have a Ferrari without an extensive background check because they are so "rare and exotic." Emps are widely available, Relics are leaps and bounds easier to achieve than they were, and mythics aren't seen useful enough because so few have them there isn't conclusive data on several of them. Thus the analogy of relic and emp: they are just decked out trucks (leather seats with butt warmers, DVD players for the little brats, cruise control, satelite radio, slightly larger engine block displacement, etc(Stronger WS, marginally higher DPS, aftermath, hidden effects)), and mythics are Hummers (looks neat, but doesn't get good enough gas mileage/utility to make it practical(lower dps, very narrow utility)).

Why do you need a bunch of "like minded people" and fight the listed fights in order to test for new/changed hidden effects on relic weapons? Can't you do that on any monster?

Once again, you are looking at the narrow view of just the availability of the weapon. I'm speaking in terms of server population, which is lacking. Like minded individuals is a term used when speaking in the sense of testing all content, not just what I'm able to because there is only a handful of people available to. Being as you and a few others on that side of the fence keep bringing up "the server will be flooded" as points of rebuttal I have responded to this. I would rather the server be "flooded" than have less than an alliance worth of people on, half of which are usually AFK and the other half testing solo content. Not to mention that allowing access to these weapons is no different than allowing access to other options already instated on the test server (Salvage gear, Abj gear, Emp+2 armor, various Rare/Ex items), something you still over look also. All of this gear can also be referred to as "toys" but the are there for the population to use aren't they?

If you have the weapons you say you have, you shouldn't have any trouble testing them out.

I do have them....(Link to feedback posted here and my ffxiah profile) Yet you failed to once again see the point I already brought up: Test server does not allow the holders of these weapons to simply trade them in for the next upgrade. Just like live servers we must still complete the trials associated with the next weapon tier. Each requires specific requirements to be met that at the test servers current population is typically not possible to fulfill, thus your retort is inaccurate. Just because I have the weapons, does not mean I am able to complete the new trials before the content goes live to ensure the adjustments made aren't unbalanced/broken. Even with a group of people, some of these trials can't be completed before the content goes live. In conclusion: How can I, a weapon holder, test changes that can't be acquired quickly enough to adequately test the new features? This is why I have also brought up the idea that I would like to see SE add the option so we could trade to the GM moogle our current weapons to obtain the final version.

On that note, if you made a point of asking for assistance, I'm sure I or anyone else here would be happy to lend you a hand. Then on top of that, they'll be introducing an invincibility command so you don't have to worry about dying while you test the crap out of whatever you need to test. I did the new final flux with like 2 other people. Obviously we couldn't win it, but we were still able to test things out. All you have to do is plan ahead a little.

Which proves another point I also made, that the lack of population leads to inconclusive testing since the content can't be completed with less than 6-36 people (taking in cap of WoE battle fields and cap of HKC BCNM fields). Inconclusive test leads to the content not being fully or accurately tested until it goes live on the main servers which leads to those oh-so-fun emergency maintenance to fix it.

Further expanding on your toss out of "invincibility command" this should only be a back up for groups to use, not a shield to hide behind while testing. This command can become over used leading to the conclusion that content difficulty is "ok" when it possibly isn't. This wouldn't be known because people would rather abuse the command rather than test the content, both the good and the bad of it. I would much rather see a full group tackle the content to get appropriate data than toss minimal amounts of people at it falling back on command that isn't available during normal play.

You're also assuming that I haven't tried using other resources to make groups. I have, but like you I ran into the problem of A.) not enough to make a well structured group which leads to B.) inability to complete the content as it was intended for more than the small group I'm with and concludes with C.) inconclusive test data to state if the content is reasonable, unbalanced, or breaks under certain conditions during battle.

[FrankReynolds]

That's the whole point. The truck is used for getting work done, while the Ferrari is an expensive toy. Playing with the expensive toy isn't going to help the overall goal of the test server any more than the truck, which gets the job done right without needing the glitter and glamour. The trucks are also more widely available than the Ferraris.

Why do you need a bunch of "like minded people" and fight the listed fights in order to test for new/changed hidden effects on relic weapons? Can't you do that on any monster? If you have the weapons you say you have, you shouldn't have any trouble testing them out. On that note, if you made a point of asking for assistance, I'm sure I or anyone else here would be happy to lend you a hand. Then on top of that, they'll be introducing an invincibility command so you don't have to worry about dying while you test the crap out of whatever you need to test. I did the new final flux with like 2 other people. Obviously we couldn't win it, but we were still able to test things out. All you have to do is plan ahead a little.

No offense Atomic, but if you can't be bothered to read a "wall of text," then you shouldn't bother yourself with commenting on it. Not every point can be expressed in one or two lines of text.

Funny story. Ferrari tests all their cars and prototypes. They blow the friggin doors off your truck. They don't build crap and then wait for people to buy it to see if it works (this is how almost every product ever sold works).

Analogies aside. I Want to know if My kannagi has a major glitch that's going to break it when I upgrade. I don't want to wait 6 months to get the plates together, and another 6 for SE to fix it. I want to test / find the problem now. I'm willing to let the 20 people that use the test server play with it, if it means fixing it now instead of later.

[Unleashhell]

No, i'm being the level-headed, productive person who wants a test server to accomplish it's purpose- to test the content the devs want us to test. You are analogizing apples and oranges, but it's more like using the pickup truck vs asking for the keys to the Ferrari. You don't need the Ferrari to get the job done.

Yeah but how you gonna bring home that new frig on the roof of a Ferrari? Kidding!!!