Relics/Mythics/Empy?

**Kitkat** · 11-26-2011 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Well I didn't read most of that because I couldn't be bothered to read the huge wall of text but if the GM Moogle starts handing out relics and emps the test server will be flooded with people who are not interested in testing.

Next time try being more concise and to the point instead of trying to bury people under a mountain of words.

Rather naive response considering there is hardly ever more than 20 on the test server as is. If there were upwards of a couple hundred on the test server then your point would be valid, but this isn't the case. Instead of people actually testing the full extent of the content, we are seeing people log on a handful of times, check out some of the new spells/abilites, and check some npc then log off and share what little they were able to learn on their own with the community. A vast amount of the information ends up coming from dat mining, and rarely do enough pool together to test the group related content because there are too few on actually interested in doing so.

Low data means inaccurate conclusions and greater possiblity for error. A larger population would lower the gap of the errors in conclusions reached during testing thus lead to a lower likely hood of emergency maintenance after an update. The game is reaching over a decade old, the novelty of end-line weapons would be short lived. The person would be more likely to stay for further testing opportunities knowing their chances of getting a group for the activity is higher rather than lower.

Seriously, you guys need to get a better hook-line than "It'll be flooded" since that isn't necessarily a bad thing considering the current constant population on the test servers. Obviously, if I log on during various times through the day and the constant average is ~17, there obviously isn't a problem with over population. More so the opposite:

**FrankReynolds** · 11-26-2011 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kitkat

Rather naive response considering there is hardly ever more than 20 on the test server as is. If there were upwards of a couple hundred on the test server then your point would be valid, but this isn't the case. Instead of people actually testing the full extent of the content, we are seeing people log on a handful of times, check out some of the new spells/abilites, and check some npc then log off and share what little they were able to learn on their own with the community. A vast amount of the information ends up coming from dat mining, and rarely do enough pool together to test the group related content because there are too few on actually interested in doing so.

Low data means inaccurate conclusions and greater possiblity for error. A larger population would lower the gap of the errors in conclusions reached during testing thus lead to a lower likely hood of emergency maintenance after an update. The game is reaching over a decade old, the novelty of end-line weapons would be short lived. The person would be more likely to stay for further testing opportunities knowing their chances of getting a group for the activity is higher rather than lower.

Seriously, you guys need to get a better hook-line than "It'll be flooded" since that isn't necessarily a bad thing considering the current constant population on the test servers. Obviously, if I log on during various times through the day and the constant average is ~17, there obviously isn't a problem with over population. More so the opposite:

NOWAI! if you give them relics, the server will suddenly have 10,000 players all log on at once and blow up the world. Then they will all quit because they feel like having the relic for 10 seconds before the world exploded was all they needed. The game will be ruined. Plus.... they don't need to test relics etc. Everyone already has a 99 relic / mythic / empyrian and they are out testing them now for your enjoyment... ohh wait....

**SNK** · 11-27-2011 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Well I didn't read most of that because I couldn't be bothered to read the huge wall of text but if the GM Moogle starts handing out relics and emps the test server will be flooded with people who are not interested in testing.

Next time try being more concise and to the point instead of trying to bury people under a mountain of words.

'

Wait... what?

**Unleashhell** · 11-28-2011 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, i'm being the level-headed, productive person who wants a test server to accomplish it's purpose- to test the content the devs want us to test. You are analogizing apples and oranges, but it's more like using the pickup truck vs asking for the keys to the Ferrari. You don't need the Ferrari to get the job done.

Yeah but how you gonna bring home that new frig on the roof of a Ferrari? Kidding!!!

**Alhanelem** · 11-27-2011 04:31 PM

Your analogy is worse than mine actually. Trucks serve far different purposes from a Ferrari.

That's the whole point. The truck is used for getting work done, while the Ferrari is an expensive toy. Playing with the expensive toy isn't going to help the overall goal of the test server any more than the truck, which gets the job done right without needing the glitter and glamour. The trucks are also more widely available than the Ferraris.

They don't really see much use on the test server because there isn't enough like minded people on the server at a given time to fully test the content being added when it comes to WoE or VWNM.

Why do you need a bunch of "like minded people" and fight the listed fights in order to test for new/changed hidden effects on relic weapons? Can't you do that on any monster? If you have the weapons you say you have, you shouldn't have any trouble testing them out. On that note, if you made a point of asking for assistance, I'm sure I or anyone else here would be happy to lend you a hand. Then on top of that, they'll be introducing an invincibility command so you don't have to worry about dying while you test the crap out of whatever you need to test. I did the new final flux with like 2 other people. Obviously we couldn't win it, but we were still able to test things out. All you have to do is plan ahead a little.

Next time try being more concise and to the point instead of trying to bury people under a mountain of words.

No offense Atomic, but if you can't be bothered to read a "wall of text," then you shouldn't bother yourself with commenting on it. Not every point can be expressed in one or two lines of text.

**Kitkat** · 11-28-2011 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's the whole point. The truck is used for getting work done, while the Ferrari is an expensive toy. Playing with the expensive toy isn't going to help the overall goal of the test server any more than the truck, which gets the job done right without needing the glitter and glamour. The trucks are also more widely available than the Ferraris.

Thing is, these weapons are just the trucks with bells and whistles. There is only a mild difference in performance between a base weapon user and a relic weapon user. Your analogy dictates that an individual has been given the keys to a vehicle that has no real utility/functionality and is just an expensive toy. That is all a Ferrari is..an expensive toy with no utility/function other than to look good. You can't even have a Ferrari without an extensive background check because they are so "rare and exotic." Emps are widely available, Relics are leaps and bounds easier to achieve than they were, and mythics aren't seen useful enough because so few have them there isn't conclusive data on several of them. Thus the analogy of relic and emp: they are just decked out trucks (leather seats with butt warmers, DVD players for the little brats, cruise control, satelite radio, slightly larger engine block displacement, etc(Stronger WS, marginally higher DPS, aftermath, hidden effects)), and mythics are Hummers (looks neat, but doesn't get good enough gas mileage/utility to make it practical(lower dps, very narrow utility)).

Why do you need a bunch of "like minded people" and fight the listed fights in order to test for new/changed hidden effects on relic weapons? Can't you do that on any monster?

Once again, you are looking at the narrow view of just the availability of the weapon. I'm speaking in terms of server population, which is lacking. Like minded individuals is a term used when speaking in the sense of testing all content, not just what I'm able to because there is only a handful of people available to. Being as you and a few others on that side of the fence keep bringing up "the server will be flooded" as points of rebuttal I have responded to this. I would rather the server be "flooded" than have less than an alliance worth of people on, half of which are usually AFK and the other half testing solo content. Not to mention that allowing access to these weapons is no different than allowing access to other options already instated on the test server (Salvage gear, Abj gear, Emp+2 armor, various Rare/Ex items), something you still over look also. All of this gear can also be referred to as "toys" but the are there for the population to use aren't they?

If you have the weapons you say you have, you shouldn't have any trouble testing them out.

I do have them....(Link to feedback posted here and my ffxiah profile) Yet you failed to once again see the point I already brought up: Test server does not allow the holders of these weapons to simply trade them in for the next upgrade. Just like live servers we must still complete the trials associated with the next weapon tier. Each requires specific requirements to be met that at the test servers current population is typically not possible to fulfill, thus your retort is inaccurate. Just because I have the weapons, does not mean I am able to complete the new trials before the content goes live to ensure the adjustments made aren't unbalanced/broken. Even with a group of people, some of these trials can't be completed before the content goes live. In conclusion: How can I, a weapon holder, test changes that can't be acquired quickly enough to adequately test the new features? This is why I have also brought up the idea that I would like to see SE add the option so we could trade to the GM moogle our current weapons to obtain the final version.

On that note, if you made a point of asking for assistance, I'm sure I or anyone else here would be happy to lend you a hand. Then on top of that, they'll be introducing an invincibility command so you don't have to worry about dying while you test the crap out of whatever you need to test. I did the new final flux with like 2 other people. Obviously we couldn't win it, but we were still able to test things out. All you have to do is plan ahead a little.

Which proves another point I also made, that the lack of population leads to inconclusive testing since the content can't be completed with less than 6-36 people (taking in cap of WoE battle fields and cap of HKC BCNM fields). Inconclusive test leads to the content not being fully or accurately tested until it goes live on the main servers which leads to those oh-so-fun emergency maintenance to fix it.

Further expanding on your toss out of "invincibility command" this should only be a back up for groups to use, not a shield to hide behind while testing. This command can become over used leading to the conclusion that content difficulty is "ok" when it possibly isn't. This wouldn't be known because people would rather abuse the command rather than test the content, both the good and the bad of it. I would much rather see a full group tackle the content to get appropriate data than toss minimal amounts of people at it falling back on command that isn't available during normal play.

You're also assuming that I haven't tried using other resources to make groups. I have, but like you I ran into the problem of A.) not enough to make a well structured group which leads to B.) inability to complete the content as it was intended for more than the small group I'm with and concludes with C.) inconclusive test data to state if the content is reasonable, unbalanced, or breaks under certain conditions during battle.

**FrankReynolds** · 11-28-2011 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's the whole point. The truck is used for getting work done, while the Ferrari is an expensive toy. Playing with the expensive toy isn't going to help the overall goal of the test server any more than the truck, which gets the job done right without needing the glitter and glamour. The trucks are also more widely available than the Ferraris.

Why do you need a bunch of "like minded people" and fight the listed fights in order to test for new/changed hidden effects on relic weapons? Can't you do that on any monster? If you have the weapons you say you have, you shouldn't have any trouble testing them out. On that note, if you made a point of asking for assistance, I'm sure I or anyone else here would be happy to lend you a hand. Then on top of that, they'll be introducing an invincibility command so you don't have to worry about dying while you test the crap out of whatever you need to test. I did the new final flux with like 2 other people. Obviously we couldn't win it, but we were still able to test things out. All you have to do is plan ahead a little.

No offense Atomic, but if you can't be bothered to read a "wall of text," then you shouldn't bother yourself with commenting on it. Not every point can be expressed in one or two lines of text.

Funny story. Ferrari tests all their cars and prototypes. They blow the friggin doors off your truck. They don't build crap and then wait for people to buy it to see if it works (this is how almost every product ever sold works).

Analogies aside. I Want to know if My kannagi has a major glitch that's going to break it when I upgrade. I don't want to wait 6 months to get the plates together, and another 6 for SE to fix it. I want to test / find the problem now. I'm willing to let the 20 people that use the test server play with it, if it means fixing it now instead of later.

**Theytak** · 11-30-2011 05:43 AM

The problem that everyone advocating adding free relics/mythics/empies to the test server are missing, and that a good part of alha's point is based on, is that the test server as SE has implemented it actually works perfectly fine for testing new content prior to it going live, to find bugs/kinks, find out what drops from what, etc. The reason it works is because the people who use it primarily are all individuals who actually know how to test shit and have the patience required to do so.

The test server isn't designed to hold a massive number of people like a regular, full server. If suddenly, everyone and their mother could access free relics/mythics/empies, the limited number of slots on the test server would get hit by a rush of inane BNS melees who want to play with x/y/z relic/mythic/empy for 15 minutes and then never log on the test server again, thus wasting their slot and lowering the number of productive testers on the server, further exacerbating the only real issue the test server has, a lack of people who know what they're doing. Yea sure, adding free toys will increase the number of PEOPLE, but it won't increase the number of testers, because the people who have the patience to test and the competency to understand what they're testing are few and far between in the playerbase.

Basically, the logic here isn't that what you guys want is necessarily a bad idea in and of itself, but rather the repercussions it will bring. Due to the fact that only about 5~10% of the playerbase will ever actually own a finished relic/mythic/empy, they are a desirable item people want to play with. Thus, while you want this:

Add Them: Those who can test but don't have the weapon on live are able to test them for possible new effects in one last update before they launch, after which they won't likely ever receive any more changes

but what you'll get is this:

Add them: number of slots on the test server ~500; ~50 are occupied by individuals who actively test new material in a proper manner, knowing what they're doing and how to do it, ~450 are occupied by Joe-Shmoe-DomaruSam who log in once or twice to play with a relic/mythic/empy and then never log in again but stay on the test server, preventing any new testers who actually know how to test from getting in.

Additionally, THE TEST SERVER DOES NOT EXIST SO THAT YOU CAN FIND OUT IF GETTING X/Y/Z RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY WEAPON IS WORTH THE EFFORT TO GET/UPGRADE. Any and all arguments attempting to use that as their purpose hold absolutely no water in this discussion, because SE made it pretty clear that the purpose of the test server is to test new content and make sure it all works as intended, and nothing more. The whole reason they made it is their extensive history of breaking all sorts of utterly unrelated crap almost every version update. If you can't find any information about the weapon you want to upgrade, find someone who has it. FFXIAH makes that pretty easy. If you can't find someone who has it, that means no one has bitten the bullet to be the "first" person to get it (I say "first" because while technically, every weapon has now been made, several of them have no information due to the one~two people who made them not being the "test shit and give people answers" type of individual). If you want to know about claustrum (first example that popped into my head after reading the thread), but can't find anyone who has one, then you're left with the option to either stop caring (which would be wise, because lolclaustrum), or to suck it up and upgrade the damn thing yourself.

If SE were to simply say: "Yes, we're adding new/changing/increasing the hidden effects of relic/mythic/empy weapons from level 95 to level 99" or "No, we are not adding new/changing/increasing the hidden effects of relic/mythic/empy weapons from level 95 to level 99" then this entire discussion would become moot. If they say they are, then they're shit they want us to test. If they say they aren't, then there's nothing to test.

**FrankReynolds** · 11-30-2011 06:32 AM

You didn't need to write nearly this much to convey what you wanted. Anyways, here goes.

Originally Posted by Theytak

The problem that everyone advocating adding free relics/mythics/empies to the test server are missing, and that a good part of alha's point is based on, is that the test server as SE has implemented it actually works perfectly fine for testing new content prior to it going live, to find bugs/kinks, find out what drops from what, etc. The reason it works is because the people who use it primarily are all individuals who actually know how to test shit and have the patience required to do so.

First of all, you have no idea what they are looking at, how well it's working for them or how well the people using it are suited for the job, because they don't report to you. All this stuff you are stating as fact is actually just how you believe it should be happening. You don't really have anything to back it other than your opinion. FYI bugs/kinks in relics/mythics/emyrians are equally important as bugs with any other item. SE doesn't ignore them just because you don't think they should care.

The test server isn't designed to hold a massive number of people like a regular, full server.

Again, your opinion stated as fact. Unless you work for SE, I call BS on you knowing anything about the design of the test server. At no point has SE stated: "We have no control over how many people log into the test server at once", so this isn't even a real issue. You just invented it.

If suddenly, everyone and their mother could access free relics/mythics/empies, the limited number of slots on the test server would get hit by a rush of inane BNS melees who want to play with x/y/z relic/mythic/empy for 15 minutes and then never log on the test server again, thus wasting their slot and lowering the number of productive testers on the server, further exacerbating the only real issue the test server has, a lack of people who know what they're doing.

Are you a professional game tester? somehow I doubt it. Matter of fact I don't believe you even know exactly what they are testing. Did it ever occur to you that they might actually want people to have fun while testing? Those "inane BNS melees" pay their monthly fees just like you, and they make up a much larger portion of the population than opinionated forum posters. SE has never said that you need to know what your doing in order to fulfill their testing needs. They have paid professional testers for that. They don't have a massive staff of "inane BNS melees", which may be why they opened a test server.

In your theory, the server is overloaded for 15 minutes, and then there is no problem again. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Yea sure, adding free toys will increase the number of PEOPLE, but it won't increase the number of testers, because the people who have the patience to test and the competency to understand what they're testing are few and far between in the playerbase.

So basically, you think your smarter / more important than allllll the other players, and thus should get to decide who is worthy of testing....... great.

Basically, the logic here isn't that what you guys want is necessarily a bad idea in and of itself, but rather the repercussions it will bring. Due to the fact that only about 5~10% of the playerbase will ever actually own a finished relic/mythic/empy, they are a desirable item people want to play with. Thus, while you want this:

Add Them: Those who can test but don't have the weapon on live are able to test them for possible new effects in one last update before they launch, after which they won't likely ever receive any more changes

but what you'll get is this:

Add them: number of slots on the test server ~500; ~50 are occupied by individuals who actively test new material in a proper manner, knowing what they're doing and how to do it, ~450 are occupied by Joe-Shmoe-DomaruSam who log in once or twice to play with a relic/mythic/empy and then never log in again but stay on the test server, preventing any new testers who actually know how to test from getting in.

SE can add / remove people from the test server at will. Just admit that you don't like to share your toys like a grown up.

Additionally, THE TEST SERVER DOES NOT EXIST SO THAT YOU CAN FIND OUT IF GETTING X/Y/Z RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY WEAPON IS WORTH THE EFFORT TO GET/UPGRADE. Any and all arguments attempting to use that as their purpose hold absolutely no water in this discussion, because SE made it pretty clear that the purpose of the test server is to test new content and make sure it all works as intended, and nothing more.

first you spout this ^ nonsense as if you know what they want. FYI just because they want us to test something doesn't mean they don't want us to do anything else. They could severely limit what we can do if they didn't want us to mess around on there. It's a game.

The whole reason they made it is their extensive history of breaking all sorts of utterly unrelated crap almost every version update.

But apparently relics / mythics / empyrians are so powerful that they are immune to SE coding mistakes. Is that an aftermath effect? will it be on all of them? or just some? This will require more testing to be sure its working as intended. Better put them on the test server ASAP.

If you can't find any information about the weapon you want to upgrade, find someone who has it. FFXIAH makes that pretty easy. If you can't find someone who has it, that means no one has bitten the bullet to be the "first" person to get it (I say "first" because while technically, every weapon has now been made, several of them have no information due to the one~two people who made them not being the "test shit and give people answers" type of individual). If you want to know about claustrum (first example that popped into my head after reading the thread), but can't find anyone who has one, then you're left with the option to either stop caring (which would be wise, because lolclaustrum), or to suck it up and upgrade the damn thing yourself.

Says you, but you don't make the game.

If SE were to simply say: "Yes, we're adding new/changing/increasing the hidden effects of relic/mythic/empy weapons from level 95 to level 99" or "No, we are not adding new/changing/increasing the hidden effects of relic/mythic/empy weapons from level 95 to level 99" then this entire discussion would become moot. If they say they are, then they're shit they want us to test. If they say they aren't, then there's nothing to test.

See your above statement. SE doesn't even need to change anything intentionally for it to get messed up. So whether or not they make that statement is irrelevant.

Next time try to be more concise. Giant posts like that just come off as temper tantrums.

**Theytak** · 11-30-2011 07:47 AM