Final Heaven builds

[BigPapaBlueJay]

In one word : you are an idiot. You just proved that you don't know how TP return work.

One word?

Also, on topic, his test is easily recreateable if you are so inclined. Make sure you are naked and sub something that isn't WAR. Also, if inside abyssea, do not use multi-hit atma's. Perform a single attack round in which 2 fist hits connect from 0 TP and record what is received. Next, perform the weapon skills in question and record TP result. Take note that the first 2 strikes of a H2H weapon skill will yield full TP return (the first number you recorded). Assuming you do not miss, all one hit H2H weapon skills will yield full TP return as if you performed an attack round normally. H2H (note the weapon type as this doesn't apply to other weapons) weapon skills with multiple strikes, assuming no miss, will yield full TP return (first number recorded) + number of hits the weapon skill lists in its description - 2. Using the test information that was provided earlier, you can see Victory Smite yielded 11 TP, 9 (attack round, 2 hits) + 4 (hits listed in description) - 2 (2 hits already performed). Victory Smite is a 4 hit weapon skill that may increase beyond the 4 hits described only if you double, triple, or quadruple attack during the weapon skill; the "off-hand" fist is counted in multi hit H2H weapon skill descriptions.

[Atoreis]

In one word : you are an idiot. You just proved that you don't know how TP return work.

Now it's actually hilarious from your part ^^ You really that mad on BG that you will disclaim pure facts and be blind for them?

I hope BigPapa described this for you simple enough that you can finally get it. In case you still haven't:

Combo 10 TP return - 9TP(2hits) +1=10 total 3 hits
Vsmite 11 TP return - 9TP(2hits) +2=11 total 4 hits
Raging 12 TP return - 9TP(2hits) +3=12 total 5 hits

[SNK]

In one word : you are an idiot. You just proved that you don't know how TP return work.

I think your ban on BG is almost up soon.

[Taint2]

I think your ban on BG is almost up soon.

Don't threaten me

[MarkovChain]

I personnally have asuran fists lower on average but probably because I systematically assume dia2+ red curry buns and mobs with moderate defense. I'm actually studying the effect of "finite hp mobs" and the inherent idle time between pulls on the DPS. So far it seems that 2 or more seconds pause bewteen mobs and 10,000 HP mobs make relic shine over verethragna. I also tell to my algorithm not to us WS under 1k HP. With this in mind it seems that relic + FH is still better, though not by much (~1%) than relic + asuran, and both easily surpass vere(95) by 5%-10%. In practice it's much worse for vere since there is a decent amount of time where the aftermath is up but you can't use it, and since FH's aftermath sucks, you don't lose DPS with the relic if you turn your back. Also it's good news for relic owners if our next WS is better than asuran, which it should be. Also it's very good news for PUP if they ever get to equip spharai.

[MarkovChain]

Ok so after semi optimizing VS (can get 190 STR on elvaan fairly easily), FH ( ~145 str & vit), asuran (140 str and attack stock piled) I'm getting all three setups more or less on par.

VS average ~ 2511
FH average ~ 2175
asuran with relic ~ 1983

*with 0 waiting time against infinite HP mobs (level 96)
relic+FH is 7% worse than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.8% better than relic+asuran



*overall, with 3 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96) :
relic+FH is 6% better than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.5% better than relic+asuran

*with 4 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96):
relic+FH is 10% better than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.6% better than relic+asuran


Seems that Vere is better 'in theory" and relic is better "in practice". Like mdk pointed out the triple proc on WS, if it happens, is fairly pointless since it's going to one shot mobs and unless you just started (and proced) the mobs and a 3x proced. So in reality the good old asuran fists is .. still the best™.

edit : if I don't count that 3x can proc on ws

with 3 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96) I have

relic+FH = verethragna < relic + asuran as expected but everything is within ~1% range of each other.

[Gukai]

Really guys, this was my post, and I asked about FH builds. I care not and asked not for the empy, so get off it and go debate about it on another thread thats actually dedicated towards the discussion, I know they exist.

For the people who have stayed true to the intent of the FH build, thank you. I saw some interesting idea's and I am going to take the gear differences, 1 item at a time, and do some testing. I'll try the Justicier Torque (yay, I have that already), then I'll try the Atheling Mantle, and then Anguinus Belt, and Usu legs (I'll compare to the Hachiryu Haidate for thoroughness). I dont have Ryuga feet yet, bummer. I might look into the augments for byakko short-shorts though. I saw Tsjukruppas necklace mentioned and the Portus Ring that has the h2h skill and vit from one of the Tavnazia boss (nice catch).
I have always been a 'in the field' kind of tester, although I see some of you do the math side and some of you noticed that your math results werent matching your actual findings! I just plan to pick a high mob that has a consistent level to fight, get max and average damages with one item, swap it for a new item and see the differences. Nothing too scientific, but like those who actually paid attention to the topic, we just want to try something else and see if we can learn more how to push our limits! Thanks again

[Greatguardian]

Like anyone cares what the OP thinks after a topic's been started.

What kind of WS frequency are you assuming when comparing Relic and Empyrean with delays between fights, Pchan? I'm having trouble imagining a 3 or 4 second delay between fights causing Aftermath to be down for any significant amount of time with Vere, especially if you're getting Marches and/or Samba. It could just be the targets, though. Delays like that would add up quickly in short fights against weak monsters, notsomuch against anything stronger.

[MarkovChain]

I don't assume any ws frequency, everything is simulated but I can give it. The x second delay greatly affects the empy but what also affects it is the limited HP and the fact that I choose not to WS under 1k HP remaining.

I actually corrected my spharai setups since it's gaining more haste from gjallahorn than +51 delay weapons, so it's even stronger.

The freq=#rounds/ws doesn't depend on mob delay it is
[6.688941455 for relic+FH, 7.049318624 for empy, 6.304524362 for relic+asuran]
It's lower for asuran because of higher TP return ( 0.38 rounds and it gets 4-5 more tp which is about that)

If I set mob's HP at 10k and choose not to ws under 1HP remaining (which means I always ws), it naturally puts the ws freq to what it should be in theory (if you don't hold tp at low HP)
[6.416572077, 6.809552600, 6.081125828]
In this case relic+asuran still wins though.

So it seems that what greatly affects dps is when AM is up and you swap mobs. Same problem as mythics btw. If I set the delay to zero, in which cas vere wins, I'm getting ~ 410-450 damage per second depending on weapons so that's ~24 seconds to kill a mob so a 2,3, or 4 second delay is necessarily important. Look at it this way : whenever you get the AM effect, you remove 2-4 seconds from it because it will be up when you pause.

Note : the algorithm is not perfect yet since I count full ws damage even if it's overkill.

[Atoreis]

So Relic can now proc x3 on WS cool.

If you really think Veret wont win with Spharai(using FH) in term of pure damage you might rethink doing a math for this game at all ^^