Blue mage logic is based on a level 75 game

[Prothscar]

....always exceptions. Skill doesn't always represent the best gear. Sorry if that doesn't fit in your little box.

Not having the best gear != not knowing how to gear. If I see someone running around in magic accuracy magian swords, a life belt, and 5/5 empyrean armor then I'm sorry, they are not a skilled BLU.

[Kitkat]

Sadly, when it comes to being good at blu you most likely will end up with several gear swaps for various spells/functions. Then it comes down to what you'll most likely be doing on what sets of gear you'll be carrying with you since, lets face it, you'll never be able to carry all sets with you (hence why you can get into sack/satchel from anywhere).

For blu it isn't necessarily a little box mentality unless you either don't have access to get the gear you are lacking, or you lack the desire to obtain it. Might even be a combination of the two, but trying to sell yourself short cause you don't want to work for the gear or swap properly doesn't make you "skilled" just makes you lazy and a hindrance over someone who is willing to. Don't kid yourself, all jobs work in this manner. Some just require more gear sets than others.

PS: Before you complain about how hard it is to get the gear you lack ask yourself this 'Do I have friends ingame?' If you can answer yes to this then you can get the gear. Some of the "harder" gear to get I've gotten with as few as 2 others, but it took time and a few tries on some of the items before getting them.

[Prothscar]

Sadly, when it comes to being good at blu you most likely will end up with several gear swaps for various spells/functions. Then it comes down to what you'll most likely be doing on what sets of gear you'll be carrying with you since, lets face it, you'll never be able to carry all sets with you (hence why you can get into sack/satchel from anywhere).

For blu it isn't necessarily a little box mentality unless you either don't have access to get the gear you are lacking, or you lack the desire to obtain it. Might even be a combination of the two, but trying to sell yourself short cause you don't want to work for the gear or swap properly doesn't make you "skilled" just makes you lazy and a hindrance over someone who is willing to. Don't kid yourself, all jobs work in this manner. Some just require more gear sets than others.

PS: Before you complain about how hard it is to get the gear you lack ask yourself this 'Do I have friends ingame?' If you can answer yes to this then you can get the gear. Some of the "harder" gear to get I've gotten with as few as 2 others, but it took time and a few tries on some of the items before getting them.

The hardest piece of gear that BLU has to get is an Epona's Ring, and even that is duoable with laughable difficulty. Almace can be done in 4-5 days or less. There's no excuse besides laziness and non-willingness to gear their job appropriately or lack of understanding as to how. This = lack of skill by definition.

[Kitkat]

So, how is what you just said any different from what I just said? I fail to see the reason why you are quoting me then reiterating what was said again. Honestly, I thought the use of quotation marks around the word showed the unbelievability of the meaning and then I explained why.

Just to humor you I'll further clarify:
Time and a few tries = not all drops are 100% (Epona's, Loki's, Tiara) even with blue proc, thus require you to re-fight to regain pop sets or wait for respawn and fight again. "Harder" = lack of believability as it is used often as an excuse for not having better gear due to laziness. "skilled" = quoted to show that the use of the term is inaccurate when attached to someone who does well in the gear they have, but doesn't have the better gear to back up the "skill" X person is saying they have.

Does that clarify it better for you? Didn't think I had to write it all out to avoid being misunderstood and "corrected*" ~shrugs~

*Being corrected when not needed because of misconstrued understanding by another individual who either did not understand the varied uses of words in quotation, or could not take the time to fully read what was written in the first place.

[Tashan]

The hardest piece of gear that BLU has to get is an Epona's Ring, and even that is duoable with laughable difficulty. Almace can be done in 4-5 days or less. There's no excuse besides laziness and non-willingness to gear their job appropriately or lack of understanding as to how. This = lack of skill by definition.

Think it's actually relative to circumstance. I myself have both Almace and Epona's Ring and yet still haven't completed +2 Bazubands.

However, I think you're both going the wrong direction with your definition's of skill in that you're basing it upon a person's effort rather than knowledge.

[Kitkat]

No, not entirely since effort and knowledge go hand in hand. I've never heard of a person just having the knowledge without putting forth an effort via practice, studying up on the job, or looking up how to get gear or what gear should be used for X situation. The lack knowledge is lack of effort to obtain it, and those who have knowledge but lack the tools to apply it are no better off especially if they lack the effort to gain the tools they are missing yet know they should.

[Tashan]

I can dissect the two fairly easily through example and demonstration keeping the following in mind:

I've never heard of a person just having the knowledge without putting forth an effort via practice, studying up on the job, or looking up how to get gear or what gear should be used for X situation.

Effort Without Knowledge


1. The Hand Me-Down Fever - As it is now more easier to have several jobs levelled, more people are recycling equipment between different jobs.

The hardest piece of gear that BLU has to get is an Epona's Ring, and even that is duoable with laughable difficulty. Almace can be done in 4-5 days or less. There's no excuse besides laziness and non-willingness to gear their job appropriately or lack of understanding as to how. This = lack of skill by definition.

Using the above two items as an example, by the idea of the positive skill correlation between knowledge and effort if you've collected an Almace and Epona's Ring on Blue Mage you have skill for that job. This means it would also have to apply to every job you've yet to play also such as PLD, RDM (melee), MNK, THF, DNC, BST, NIN and so on.

I disagree, and rebute the idea that if one has made the effort on one job that skill is transferrable to every job they play.

2. The Gifted Sensation - As well as having equipment which is transferrable between jobs, it's also very easy to collect equipment for other jobs whilst putting the effort for one. I have AF3+2 materials, equipment and weapons for many other jobs, none of which I use on BLU.

Because of this I once thought I'd give playing MNK a try and had it Cleave Burned to 90, skilled it up to max and started with a 1/3 of my TP build already up to scratch.

I went out to solo in Garliage Citadel and not having a natural cure or stun option led to me getting 1 shotted by an AM2 spell from a ghost. I sucked at it.

My efforts to collect decent equipment for a job I never played contributed very little to the skill I needed to actually play it.

3. Effort Without Knowledge -There are many people who play this game without participating in forum discussion, or all in all even look at the Wiki. I have a friend in game who plays on an Xbox 360, doesn't have a computer and doesn't research any information outside of the game.

His favourite two jobs are BST and WAR and even though he had collected some fantastic gear through our LS, he had no idea how to create different equipment sets, never used macros and just full-timed certain pieces.

How did he collect all those great items without having the know-how? Friends. Other people would tell him whether a mob dropped something for one of his jobs and he'd collect them.

Knowledge without Effort

As much as I feel the above reasons are true they can also be objectively argued against relevantly.

4. Transferrable Skills - If you know how to make a Haste TP build on one job, odds are you're going to be just fine making another on a different job. You don't neccesarily need to have made the effort of collecting the items to have that as a skill.

5. Knowledge without Effort - There are many people in game who put in the effort to collect good gear without the knowledge of how to use it.

As an example, one thing I used to do for many people back in the LV75 era was help Samurai's make 4-6 hit TP builds. There were a lot of people that didn't appreciate that you could change just one piece in a X Hit build and completely mess up your whole approach by carrying redundant +STP.

I myself knew how to make those build's easily, yet never put in any of the effort to collect and use it.

--

I think that's enough for a rebuttal against the idea that (Effort:Knowledge) = Skill.

[Kitkat]

Your dissection was actually broke down by what you posted. You basically proved by what you wrote that Knowledge of how a job functions and putting forth the effort to gear it appropriately then using it in practice associates to skill.

My efforts to collect decent equipment for a job I never played contributed very little to the skill I needed to actually play it.

Your "hand me downs" were still collected by you, whether by choice or consequence, but even with these lack of knowledge on how to plan ahead for pitfalls of the job was your down fall. Thus gear alone does not equal skill.

There are many people in game who put in the effort to collect good gear without the knowledge of how to use it.

This is an utter lack of skill by definition since the gear is still useless if you lack the knowledge to apply it in the correct method. Additionally, stating that "transferable skill" equates to skill is inaccurate as not all jobs play the same, especially true when comparing a conventional melee with blu. Knowing how to build a ws set and tp set are not nearly enough to know how to play the job. You would not play blu like you would a thf, you can't play blu like you would a nin, mnk, war, rng, or similar physical DD since melee alone would be insufficient or the passive/job abilities function completely different.

The only comparable job to blu would be rdm as both rely on various sources of damage, has the ability to cure, debuff, and rely on various different sets to gain the utmost effect from the differing gameplay aspects. Unlike other jobs you are far more likely to swap many pieces of gear at once, and a number of times, on these two jobs than you are on conventional melee. This is not transferable skill either, as the spells cast on blu must be set and the blu must learn which are better to set due to limited points and spell slots. Once again, this is typically done in practice or by learning from another source, thus does not translate to lack of effort or knowledge, but instead in an effort to attain knowledge. Hence the hand-in-hand reasoning to equate skill.

Just because a person knows how to play a job, but lacks the gear to play it to its fullest does not make them skilled. Alternatively, just because a person has all the best gear but the lack of how to utilize it also does not make them skilled. The ability to put forth the effort behind why the gear is important, and the knowledge on how to use it in conjunction with the way the job is played equates to skill. If a person knows how to play the job and why certain gear is important but will not put forth an effort to get the gear, they are not skilled due to their own unwillingness to better themselves. This will become exceedingly more apparent when these so called "skilled" but ill equipped users are fighting on the same mob with a fully geared and knowledgeable player due to noticeable gaps in damage from all sources.

Thus skill equates to: Effort to obtain necessary components + knowledge on how to use necessary components to reach peak performance.

You can't have one without the other and still be skilled at what you are doing. This is a concept that encompasses all jobs due to the varied styles of each job. Thus knowing generic information also does not equal skill since it is all encompassing, but is not exact job to job due to the use of different pieces of gear, and building around the different style of play of the jobs.

[Tashan]

I feel like you've not completely understood what's being said again, as the majority of that post was an attempt to either highlight contradictions or just repeat what I already stated, in your own words.

Just to clarify, nothing of which I stated was an explanation of player skill. It was to rebute the following.

I've never heard of a person just having the knowledge without putting forth an effort via practice, studying up on the job, or looking up how to get gear or what gear should be used for X situation.

Or in my own words, putting in the effort to collect gear does not make neccesarily correlate positively with skill.

Now I will just point out bluntly that it wasn't you who made the statement that making the lack of effort of collecting equipment = lack of skill, but as you were agreeing with the same person's statements I just took it as is.

But for the sake of it I will choose a few things to respond to:

Your "hand me downs" were still collected by you, whether by choice or consequence, but even with these lack of knowledge on how to plan ahead for pitfalls of the job was your down fall. Thus gear alone does not equal skill.

That's what I said. I can't see a contradiction here.

Additionally, stating that "transferable skill" equates to skill is inaccurate as not all jobs play the same

Knowing how to build a ws set and tp set are not nearly enough to know how to play the job.

Exactly. .

The transferrable skill is not in actually playing the job, but in making a Haste TP build. Thus whilst having that knowledge is a skill, it doesn't neccesarily mean you are skilled at the job.

The only comparable job to blu would be rdm as both rely on various sources of damage

as the spells cast on blu must be set and the blu must learn which are better to set due to limited points and spell slots.

Once again, this is typically done in practice or by learning from another source, thus does not translate to lack of effort or knowledge, but instead in an effort to attain knowledge

You seem to be taking your opinion on "effort" from collecting equipment to something completely different. Allow me to just remind you that we've been talking about a BLU's ability to gear themselves in relation to their skill.

Just because a person knows how to play a job, but lacks the gear to play it to its fullest does not make them skilled. Alternatively, just because a person has all the best gear but the lack of how to utilize it also does not make them skilled.

Yes

Your dissection was actually broke down by what you posted. You basically proved by what you wrote that Knowledge of how a job functions and putting forth the effort to gear it appropriately then using it in practice associates to skill.

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However, I think you're both going the wrong direction with your definition's of skill in that you're basing it upon a person's effort rather than knowledge.

Other than all of that, I don't think there's anything neccesary to point out as you're pretty much on same wavelength at a different angle.

[Kitkat]

The comparison was only to show how the transference of skill is inaccurate. First effort is placed in the acquisition of expanding current knowledge, then knowledge is used in practice, and through application of knowledge (AKA: effort) obtain additional missing gear. In this sense it is more a transference of knowledge than it is of skill since prior obtained gear does not always carry over to different jobs and require effort be put forth to once more gain missing gear to build a set for that job.

This quote:

I've never heard of a person just having the knowledge without putting forth an effort via practice, studying up on the job, or looking up how to get gear or what gear should be used for X situation

Does not mean:

Or in my own words, putting in the effort to collect gear does not make neccesarily correlate positively with skill.

It is being misinterpreted by you I believe. It only states what knowledge is; something obtained via self educating, through practice and application, or familiarizing information to a given situation. I believe you emphasized the use of the word "gear" in what was said when that was not the focal point, knowledge and the inevitable effort on behalf of the person to obtain it was the focal point. Hence the "hand-in-hand" approach to reach the conclusion of what "skill" is. It is a conjunction of the two, but alone the person becomes either knowledgeable or determined.

Either way, I think we've gone well off track from the original purpose of this topic and should return or accept that the same ideal is present on the definition. If not, then a separate topic should be made to further debate about it.