Cure V

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're ignoring the point.

Let me bold it for you.

It is not about the high end of the curing ability so much as the low end of the curing requirement. Player will go with the bottom of the barrel cure if they can afford to get away with it, and WHM lacks the other utilities to make it a compedetive pick against RDM and SCH unless RDM and SCH are more or less incapable of filling the role.

The Playerbase WILL force all support roles onto one job if they feel they can get away with it. (Back to RDM+BRD days.) Instead of distributing their functions into a more varied set-up.

If RDM or SCH is capable of taking the healing load, goodbye WHM. It dosen't matter if the WHM is a better healer or not, another mage just just has to be passable to bump WHM off. It currently does not have enough of a draw into other functions to make it a contender outside "Omg this mob's tough we need a whm!"

Lacks what other utilities? Mp conservation? Nope, Enfeebling - has all of ours bar merit spells, Enhancing bar 1 merit spell - Whm still ahead, meleeing? Whm had Rdm stomped pre temper, and Melee mages are not viable on hard content. That leaves you with Refresh 2 (unneeded if you brought decent support) and Saboteur T2 Spells (and nuking, but if you cared about magic damage you'd bring Blm/Sch/Even Blu is better in terms of mp/damage ratio also for extremely low hate).

[Ophannus]

SE wants to give SCH more regen potential as they get regen enhancing gear and the spells earlier than any job. Saying WHM should be the only class with Cure5/6 and that any other class getting it would reduce WHM's spot as top healer is like saying giving weapon skills past level 48 to other melee reduces WAR's spot as top damage dealer. Why can we have 8-10 damage dealers, 2-3 tank jobs 2-3 magic damage nukers but only 1 healer?

Why doesn't WHM have to compete with other jobs for a spot like WAR DRK RNG DRG SAM MNK THF BST NIN PUP have at a DD slot?

"Because WHm was designed only to heal" -- If that was the case lets strip them of all their enhancing spells and enfeebling spells because RDM is obviously better at that than WHM yet WHM enhances way better and has gear/merits to enhanes their regens/bars and they have every white magic enfeeble we do except merits. That's like giving SCH PLD RDM Cure V and all Curagas and Cure Skin but making Cure VI WHM merit only.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The damage without Auspice/Misery Bonus still sucks but SE still fixed Holy's range and gave them Holy II, and is working on higher tier Banishes.

Whm is a better enhancer (in terms of actually being able to, you know, give buffs to the pt) than Rdm bar Phalanx II as well... and has higher base combat skill + Doesn't need Empyrean to access it (Not that emps are hard, But having your best WS untethered to 1 weapon unless said weapon enhances said WS is a boon. 95 Relic is better than any other weapon for pure damage for them anyway). The only thing they're missing is damaging nukes.

[Motenten]

Warning: Long post, lots of math.

Formula for cures:
h = floor(((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / x) + y) + Equipment bonus) + Day bonus + Weather bonus)

Separating out primary aspects:

((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / x) + y

Rename for clarity:

((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / scale) + offset

And will consider the stat aspect as a single entity:

RawStat = (3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT)

So you can think of the formula as

RawStat / scale + offset

Just for reference, minimum HP healed:
Cure 1: 10
Cure 2: 60
Cure 3: 130
Cure 4: 270
Cure 5: 450


Now the important bits:

Initial offset:
Cure 1: -10
Cure 2: 20
Cure 3: 70
Cure 4: 165
Cure 5: 330

Initial scale:
Cure 1: 2
Cure 2: 2
Cure 3: 2
Cure 4: 4/3
Cure 5: 4/3

"Soft cap":
Cure 1: 20
Cure 2: 75
Cure 3: 160
Cure 4: 330
Cure 5: 570

RawStat required for soft cap:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 220
Cure 5: 320


After the soft cap, scale increases to 4 for all except Cure V, which drops to 1. Higher scale means less gain per mnd/vit/healing skill.

While wiki lists the soft cap in terms of total healed, it would make more sense mathematically to list in terms of raw combined stat: (3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT). When RawStat reaches a certain value, that RawStat/scale becomes the new offset and a new scale is implemented.


The values that wiki lists for progressing above the soft cap use a "y" (offset) value that assumes scale works from 0. Given that the scale is discontinuous, that's not the best way to present it. It should be more like:

((RawStat - SoftCapRawStat) / newScale) + SoftCap

Cure 1, for example, uses x = 4, y = 5 when applied to the full raw stat once past the soft cap. However if you calculate SoftCapRawStat/newScale, 60/4, you get 15; subtract 15 from the soft cap of 20 and you get 5, which explains the chosen y.

Continuing to the 'hard' cap (though not really a strict hard cap since it can still increase beyond that):

"Hard cap" healed:
Cure 1: 30
Cure 2: 90
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 390
Cure 5: 690

The RawStat increase needed to reach the hard cap would be:
Cure 1: 40
Cure 2: 60
Cure 3: 120
Cure 4: 240
Cure 5: 120

Total RawStat needed to reach the hard cap:
Cure 1: 100
Cure 2: 170
Cure 3: 300
Cure 4: 460
Cure 5: 440

You'll note that it takes more effort to get Cure IV up to its hard cap than to get Cure V up to its cap, and that the requirements over Cure III are also pretty substantial.


Then you have the scaling above the hard cap. This scale is the rate at which you need to increase the raw stat total to increase the amount of HP healed by 1.
Cure 1: 114
Cure 2: 214/3 (71.33)
Cure 3: 94/3 (31.33)
Cure 4: 13
Cure 5: 17/6 (2.833)

I'll note that some of the numbers really seem wonky, but I'm not the one who tested them so I'll just accept it. Regardless, they're all extremely high, except for Cure V. Additional RawStat has almost no impact.



Changes that I would make:

Change RawStat required for soft cap:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 220
Cure 5: 320

to

Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 120
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 240
Cure 5: 320

This gives a little more headroom on the fastest-scaling area for cures 2 and 4.

I'd then change the scaling for the soft cap zone from 4/4/4/4/1 to 4/4/4/2/1, giving Cure IV a better scaling rate in that area (keeping the RawStat required to reach the hard cap). The amount cured by each at their respective hard caps would then be:

Cure 1: 30
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 465
Cure 5: 690

Which gives a fairly substantial boost to Cure IV, a near 20% increase in amount cured at its cap.

Then look into the post-hard cap scaling. Personally, I'd aim for about +10% cured per +100 RawStat. That would put their respective scalings at:
Cure 1: 33
Cure 2: 9
Cure 3: 5
Cure 4: 2
Cure 5: 1.4


Then the total amount cured at 480 RawStat for each of them would be:
Cure 1: -10 + 60/2 + 40/4 + 360/33 = 40
Cure 2: 20 + 120/2 + 60/4 + 300/9 = 128
Cure 3: 70 + 180/2 + 120/4 + 180/5 = 226
Cure 4: 165 + 240/(4/3) + 240/2 + 0/2 = 465
Cure 5: 330 + 320/(4/3) + 120/1 + 40/1.4 = 718

Which, if you add 50% cure potency, would give:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 192
Cure 3: 339
Cure 4: 697
Cure 5: 1077

Between the caps and the scaling, cures 1-4 gain the equivalent of somewhere around 15%-20% cure potency, putting Cure IV at roughly the equivalent of unbuffed lvl 75 Cure V's, and Cure III at a bit below lvl 75 Cure IV's. In other words, a functionally useful amount cured (over 1000 cured with Cure IV+III) without going overboard into whm's territory.

It's enough to be sufficient for lightly to moderately difficult fights, but still keeps whm as who you want for very difficult fights (shift down the scale depending on quality of mage, tank and/or DD, of course).


That would be my initial suggestion for adjusting healing abilities with an eye towards rdm and sch (with sch getting the extra edge of light weather). After that they can add extra things such as sch's enhanced regens, etc.

[Hyrist]

That would be my initial suggestion for adjusting healing abilities with an eye towards rdm and sch (with sch getting the extra edge of light weather). After that they can add extra things such as sch's enhanced regens, etc.

I would be behind this solution, where as SCH could get the enhanced regens and RDM more enhanced debuffs for damage prevention. A soft cap increase accompanied by the Cure Potency gear would bring the healing focus back on track without overshooting it the way Cure V itself would.

Though, that would be more work on SE's end. Still, better than just slapping another tier on RDM and SCH and calling it a day. Cure V is way too toxic of a spell in that regard.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I want to say something about healing skill affecting cures more but /sch etc. otherwise at the very, very minimum (I am talking very minimum here) I can get behind the soft caps being raised. At the same time, Cure 4 still generates quite a bit of enmity, even more so if it cures for more hp. 6 is overkill but both 5 and 6 have fixed enmity generation.

[Hyrist]

Arguing in circles again.

I've already explained this before: You should invite your Hybrids to accompany your lower tier healers, and leave WHM as the undisputed king of burst healing.

If anything, hybrid jobs need a boost in this situation to make it work easier to this standard, rather than telling SCH and RDM they should be WHMs.

Healing is the least desired of an MMO role. So forcing that function on a singular job within a party, instead of distributing the role among multiple jobs that also serve other purposes goes against this dichotomy instead of working with it.

Again, SCH and RDM should have their own healing over time functions to compliment their damage prevention measures, but nothing more than that, as they already do have powerful damage prevention functions. (though again, RDM needs better spells to regard TP attacks.)

This wouldn't even be an augment if we had a spell that reduced the severity of TP attacks on the monster, we wouldn't need the burst healing you're asking for so loudly.


As far as poor game design, Cid. The poor game design was putting 20 jobs with the vast majority of them Damage Dealers with little other functionality. Placing your same bread and butter Healers in the game creates a very difficult job dynamic, instead of encouraging hybrid roles to accompanying more jobs.

And the more powerful you make the current jobs capable of healing, the harder that dynamic gets. You won't pick a Blue Mage over a Monk unless the monk cant' provide something you need, that a Blue Mage has. Same for every other Hybrid vs top tier damage dealer.

SE really pinned themselves hard in this situation because they're screwed either way. If they give Scholar and Red Mage the healing capacity people are asking for, the way they're asking for it, it will cause the same issues as it did in ToAU, hands down. And still, Hybrids and WHMs will lose out.

But if the player-base, stubborn as mules, will never invite 2 jobs to cover 3 roles if the split role is healing. Which really sucks for players who like playing hybrids.

I get the arguments for having more diversified healing base. But that sort of competition is unhealthy for the kind of jobs we have in this game. Instead we need to be upping the damage prevention utilities of more jobs, particularly RDM and SCH, to compensate.

For 'lighter duty' you shouldn't be needing cure V, and if we're to that point where we do, then for RDM specifically, it's our debuff and enhancing that needs a stronger looking at, NOT our Cure tier.

TL;DR?

Damage Prevention >>>>> Damage Recovery. We don't need stronger healers. We need stronger buffs and debuffs.

[CapriciousOne]

Arguing in circles again.

I've already explained this before: You should invite your Hybrids to accompany your lower tier healers, and leave WHM as the undisputed king of burst healing.

If anything, hybrid jobs need a boost in this situation to make it work easier to this standard, rather than telling SCH and RDM they should be WHMs.

1. Healing is the least desired of an MMO role. So forcing that function on a singular job within a party, instead of distributing the role among multiple jobs that also serve other purposes goes against this dichotomy instead of working with it.

Again, SCH and RDM should have their own healing over time functions to compliment their damage prevention measures, but nothing more than that, as they already do have powerful damage prevention functions. (though again, RDM needs better spells to regard TP attacks.)

2. This wouldn't even be an augment if we had a spell that reduced the severity of TP attacks on the monster, we wouldn't need the burst healing you're asking for so loudly.


3. As far as poor game design, Cid. The poor game design was putting 20 jobs with the vast majority of them Damage Dealers with little other functionality. Placing your same bread and butter Healers in the game creates a very difficult job dynamic, instead of encouraging hybrid roles to accompanying more jobs.

And the more powerful you make the current jobs capable of healing, the harder that dynamic gets. You won't pick a Blue Mage over a Monk unless the monk cant' provide something you need, that a Blue Mage has. Same for every other Hybrid vs top tier damage dealer.

SE really pinned themselves hard in this situation because they're screwed either way. If they give Scholar and Red Mage the healing capacity people are asking for, the way they're asking for it, it will cause the same issues as it did in ToAU, hands down. And still, Hybrids and WHMs will lose out.

4. But if the player-base, stubborn as mules, will never invite 2 jobs to cover 3 roles if the split role is healing. Which really sucks for players who like playing hybrids.

5. I get the arguments for having more diversified healing base. But that sort of competition is unhealthy for the kind of jobs we have in this game. Instead we need to be upping the damage prevention utilities of more jobs, particularly RDM and SCH, to compensate.

For 'lighter duty' you shouldn't be needing cure V, and if we're to that point where we do, then for RDM specifically, it's our debuff and enhancing that needs a stronger looking at, NOT our Cure tier.

TL;DR?

Damage Prevention >>>>> Damage Recovery. We don't need stronger healers. We need stronger buffs and debuffs.

1. I couldn't agree more as this alone is the main reason I dont ask for and deny any and all party invites because I feel RDM has no business main healing no matter how good it is at doing it personally. Plus that bs is just boring and lazy for all of RDM talents. I just feel RDM has more to contribute than being a nurse especially since not only does whm have the same spells they cover multiple people for the same mp with the curaga spells. Yea i know all the complaints about WHM doing that but whatever I'm just saying.

2. TP reduction debuffs for RDM would be sweet and welcomed for events I imagine though I never do any but still would also help with NM that do crazy TP damage moves that are AoE as well. I still disagree with you however that burst cures like cure V wouldnt be needed especially solo which is the main reason i'm asking for it. I tend to play with fire i suppose and allow my hp to be orange or red depending on the strength of the mob so being able to get back up to almost full health would be welcomed. I'm just a glutton for pain I suppose and like the adrenaline of almost dying.

3. As long as I dont have to main heal I'll accompany just about any job combination anywhere. I always try to adjust to change circumstances instead of the whole cookie cutter bs the player base refuses to alter. The strongest players in any game are always flexible and able to adjust in my opinion.

4. Again I couldnt put it better myself. This is the heart of all the problems in this game, THE PLAYERS not the developers. Our inability to consider anything other then the old and worn out is beyond annoying to me. Which is why I exclusively solo now because I dont have to put up with bs arguments over why I chose this piece or armor or cast this spell or god knows whatever other bs somebody finds to whine about. This is a game and it is meant to played in a myriad of ways that satisfies our gameplay experience. Just because I like to do something a certain way that another person doesnt have the patience or guts to manage doesnt make it wrong just different.

5. Well I still want Cure V but I totally agree our enfeebles could stand to be stronger and proc more. I mean the baseline effects before gear mods and stat boost could be increased. One thing I personally would like is if Group 1 and 2 merits across the board was increased from 10 to 20 for all jobs. Actually 30 would be best but I dont expect miracles from SE about that but still I would enjoy it. I'm especially keen on using Tier 2 Phalanx/blind/paralyze and Tier 3 Bio and Dia so being able to max out all would be sweet but again wishful thinking.

I suppose we do tend to overlook our debuffs in the cry for Cure V but I still think it is type for a new Cure. I mean it has been over 42 levels and no new cure? I've seen some Gov where the pages call for mobs that are like level 100+ to be killed, trust me Cure V is and will be needed like it or not and your going to want more than just WHM to have it. Plus with Curaga IV and Curaga V, WHM can still shine bright. I always thought it would be cool to low man a WHM, a BLM, and a RDM and take on multiple mobs at once but since RDM has no AoE enfeebles this would suck but I digress.

Overall I think there needs to be more diversity in job choices for parties instead of the cookie cutter we have been dependent. Yea yea I know it works but so does other combinations if one knows how to mitigate weakness. To me this is the reason support jobs exist to mitigate those weakenss depending on your ultimate goal. Still this is a USER problem and unless those users for the diversity give those against it the proverbial finger and band together this probelm will always remain.

[Quetzacoatl]

Okay, here's the plan.

If RDM gets Cure V, then RDM gets Tier 5 Nukes (along with new debuffs, of course), and Manifestation Nukes are SCH Main Job only. That is the only way I will accept seeing RDM get Cure V.

WHM and BLM will still have the stronger nukes and cures anyway because of their supplemental abilities and job traits.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Okay, here's the plan.

If RDM gets Cure V, then RDM gets Tier 5 Nukes (along with new debuffs, of course), and Manifestation Nukes are SCH Main Job only. That is the only way I will accept seeing RDM get Cure V.

WHM and BLM will still have the stronger nukes and cures anyway because of their supplemental abilities and job traits.

Cure V and tier V nukes are not the same. Tier V nukes are comparable to Cure VI.