Cure V

[Neisan_Quetz]

88 threads in one forum = 900, you heard it here first.

[Hyrist]

Cause RDM official boards = the entirety of RDM threads on the internet.

[Hyrist]

5. Well I still want Cure V but I totally agree our enfeebles could stand to be stronger and proc more. I mean the baseline effects before gear mods and stat boost could be increased. One thing I personally would like is if Group 1 and 2 merits across the board was increased from 10 to 20 for all jobs. Actually 30 would be best but I dont expect miracles from SE about that but still I would enjoy it. I'm especially keen on using Tier 2 Phalanx/blind/paralyze and Tier 3 Bio and Dia so being able to max out all would be sweet but again wishful thinking.

I suppose we do tend to overlook our debuffs in the cry for Cure V but I still think it is type for a new Cure. I mean it has been over 42 levels and no new cure?

Ultimately, this is what it boils down into.

There are those who want Cure V purely for the sake of getting a new Cure. And those who want Cure V to compete in the healer slot with White Mage.

Neither of these are a strong enough case for the spell, especially because of the job and playerbase dynamic. You simply won't bring a Hybrid unless a favored healer/debuffer is just short of the mark, which is where RDM and SCH need to be, IMO, to keep WHM as even a passing consideration.

You might list tier 1 Debuffs as if they matter a lick a damn compared to their tier 2 counterparts, but they honestly don't. Slow 2 Starts where slow 1 ENDS and Saboteaur Dia III alone bests out any offensive assistance WHM can give on a higher defense mob. That's not touching the nuking game, crowd control, or Embrava (on SCH's side of the argument.)

I do beleive RDM and SCH need healing improvements, but more than a cure '4.5 'is toxic. Cure V is just that much by and large more potently powerful, and in the hands of RDM and SCH on top of their other utilities, it provides a severe fear of these three issues:

1. It detracts from White Mage being brought to preform the role it alone is the specialist in.
2. It distracts from more job defining aspects both SCH and RDM should be their respective specialists in.
3. It re-polarizes the job economy away from Hybrid jobs or job that fill multiple roles when it desperately needs to go the other direction.

Sadly, Cure V is that potent of a spell. It's the wrong way to go to solve a problem that is simply about much more than RDM or SCH individually.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Cause RDM official boards = the entirety of RDM threads on the internet.

And I care about Rdms whining on other boards why? and there still isn't 900 threads on this forum of whining so he's still exaggerating. Pointing out use the search function suggests he means these boards, not 5 other ones added up together.


1. Cure V isn't the only thing keeping Whm heads above bringing any other job for healing unless you're fighting fodder mobs, Adloqium is a joke at 1/tick, Libra is useless (oh hey I tell you shit you've known for the past 3 years), Enfeebles are either heavily resisted or SE brings out more and more NMs that either completely ignore the majority of them (-30 accuracy from overcapped hit rate is still overcapped hit rate, 90% of NMs post RoZ resist gravity, bind is near useless for new NMs even if it did land) or where enfeebling them is near pointless as they possess unnamed AoE attacks that are considered TP moves, meaning paralyze and slow cannot do anything to mitigate them. Then they refuse to let Pining and Addle Stack on the basis mobs cannot swing at you while casting spells... as if most monsters take a really long time casting spells and/or don't have high levels of fast cast/elemental celerity. Oh, and handing out Addle to the job already beating all the other mages in terms of support and healing/giving Brd Pining and then making it not stack is a brilliant move for the job they claim they want to specialize in enfeebling. In spite of that, specializing in a specific role does not mean no other job should be able to fill that role.

2. Job defining aspects? how is ignoring one of the roles of the job detracting from its aspects? Rdms are supposed to specialize in several schools of magic but not be the best in any one field (no native -aga cures no native status removal no native AoE buffs period no Sacrifice/Esuna/Auspice/Misery no T5 nukes No Comet/Meteor no native dark magic other than Bio series no -aga/-aja nukes no Elemental Celerity), Sch is supposed to learn white and black magic and have to decide which to specialize in at a given moment, Cure V will not change this. Whm is still the absolute best healer and now, 2 other jobs can help fill the role if necessary.

3. Hybrid jobs that actually fill a hybrid role are... let's go with Blu and maybe Dnc right now. SE has basically told Dancers they refuse to make the job more viable as a support healer and after the heavy strike nerf to Blu (killing both its accuracy and ftp) it's pretty clear they don't care about hybrid jobs at tough events. Whm is still going to be the de facto best healer in the game whether or not Sch and Rdm get Cure V. I really don't know how you think more jobs being able to fill a healing role if necessary is a bad thing, Cure IV does not cut it.

[cidbahamut]

We get it it Hyrist. You don't want Red Mage to be versatile and useful.

[CapriciousOne]

Ultimately, this is what it boils down into.

There are those who want Cure V purely for the sake of getting a new Cure. And those who want Cure V to compete in the healer slot with White Mage.

Neither of these are a strong enough case for the spell, especially because of the job and playerbase dynamic. You simply won't bring a Hybrid unless a favored healer/debuffer is just short of the mark, which is where RDM and SCH need to be, IMO, to keep WHM as even a passing consideration.

You might list tier 1 Debuffs as if they matter a lick a damn compared to their tier 2 counterparts, but they honestly don't. Slow 2 Starts where slow 1 ENDS and Saboteaur Dia III alone bests out any offensive assistance WHM can give on a higher defense mob. That's not touching the nuking game, crowd control, or Embrava (on SCH's side of the argument.)

I do beleive RDM and SCH need healing improvements, but more than a cure '4.5 'is toxic. Cure V is just that much by and large more potently powerful, and in the hands of RDM and SCH on top of their other utilities, it provides a severe fear of these three issues:

1. It detracts from White Mage being brought to preform the role it alone is the specialist in.
2. It distracts from more job defining aspects both SCH and RDM should be their respective specialists in.
3. It re-polarizes the job economy away from Hybrid jobs or job that fill multiple roles when it desperately needs to go the other direction.

Sadly, Cure V is that potent of a spell. It's the wrong way to go to solve a problem that is simply about much more than RDM or SCH individually.

Well I must admit that I have been rather busy with leveling my Adventuring fellow to the current cap as well as skilling so I havent really seen firsthand Cure V in action. I also agree with somebody else that the merit system should not have been used to give RDM higher tier enfeeble spells and in stead should've focused more on elemental potency instead like the group 1 merits. This would cover all of RDM spells pretty much from Enfeebles, Enhacement, and elemental. Since most of these factor in our actual skill the group 2 merits would look similar to group 1. Ex. "Fire Magic Potency" with each merit adding like 4% potency. With this enhancements like tier 1 and 2 enspells damage would increase since at current it seem to cap out at 10% of your enhancing skill before gear bonuses" this instead would increase it to say 30 percent.

Also it would be nice to expand rdm only spells to be AoE as well like Enspells so that party members could also reap the benefits of our enspells natively and exclusively by RDM. If improvements like this was made to RDM then I see no reason why more rdm wouldnt be invited and it would de-emphasize RDM for healing and instead buffing. I still would like to see some AoE enfeebles because I'm just me and the idea of RDM/BLM/WHM owning mobs without the prototypical DD seems doable to me if that would happen :-) For instance a Bindga spell would be nice for RDM for WoE battlefields to keep mobs from roaming around while party kills boss or other mob. Also in some situations being able to group enfeeble would allow the possibilties of a party attacking multiple mobs at once in said battlefields giving more of a chance to complete battle in time (think blindga - RDM/BLM, or paralyzga - RDM/WHM).

On a personal level I dont think a half a cure is reasonable, why tease me with a half-assed cure? I'm more of an all of nothing guy but if they decide on nothing than they should make the adjustments mentioned above to compensate. For those who already have Group 2 RDM merits, upon update they should just be given the spell in thier inventory upon login. So I would already have a Dia/Bio III, Paralyze/Blind/Phalanx II scroll since I merited those. Make the group 2 merits element based (Fire, Wind, Earth, Lightining,Water, Ice potency). Increase the total Group I/II merits to 20 or 30 for each group for every job and we should be all set.

This would not allow us to overpower BLM in any way because we are still limited by Magic Attack Bonus traits which only BLM gets every last one and we don't so dont start whining about that too now. This increases the Potency of Tier 1 and Tier 2 enspells as well as barspells for RDM providing more damage and protection respectively.

Personally though I never understood why WHM needed AoE buffs when RDM has the stronger skill there anyway, if it was me I would strip WHM of it and give to RDM where it belong, LOL. Seriously though strip WHM of this and give to RDM where it should be and then WHM can quit crying already. This combined with the merit changes would allow more hybrid jobs to take on a more meaningful role other than being a nurse.

Technically though if DD and tank /dnc more there wouldnt really be that much need for a WHM anyway so anyway you look it at there is always something to threaten the need for a WHM. Just tired of the devoted hate toward us RDM. :-D

I personally want Cure V because as my fellow is approaching level 80 and i'm using level 81-90 mobs to level her up with I am finding it increasingly resource consuming to keep both of us heal despite refresh ii and /dnc. It just starting to feel like it is quickly going to be inadequate soon as i seek out mobs. Right now i'm still 90 bc I want my skills to catch up more before breaking to 95 but these cure issues do need to be adressed. I need to be able to cure 550+ hp in one swoop. Curing waltz III is the last waltz I will get as /dnc so i need something stronger to compensate and soon. Yea I know of potency stuff but I hate clutter in my inventory which is already stretched thin. In addition I dont have time to be macroing in/out gear for potency as RDM/DNC espeically if the effect is on a weapon because of the TP loss for swapping out weapons. If TP was attached to the character and not the weapon instead then I might me ok with it but it isnt designed that way.

[Hyrist]

I'm sorry Cid, what was that? I can't hear over the ignore you're under.

[Hyrist]

1. Cure V isn't the only thing keeping Whm heads above bringing any other job for healing unless you're fighting fodder mobs,

Yes, it is. It is the ONLY thing keeping RDM and SCH from being able to fully address spike damage that Cure IV spam cannot handle. Unless you're talking mass AoE damage in which case you should be bringing both RDM and WHM bare minimum.

You think Cureskin matters on anything but the highest NMs? If so, then you need better tanks, which is sad considering which side of the elitist argument you're on.

2. Job defining aspects? how is ignoring one of the roles of the job detracting from its aspects?

Funny, I made that argument about melee.

If you picture RDM as a solo healer for a party than you're on the wrong job. Red Mage is a SUPPORT job. The emphasis on the job is Enfeebeling, with a nod to self-enhancing. This is the direction stated in the JP version of the Manifesto, not to mention the bread and butter of the job.

HNM resistance issues still do not prevent RDM from maintaining haste and Refresh II on their party. It still does not prevent them from putting up to a 23% irresistible defense reduction on the kill target.

There is no argument that RDM isn't inheriantly broken in the way Enhancing only seems to benefit the RDM the most or how Enfeebles can be resisted far too easily on HNM mobs. But if you beleive healing is more important than that, get out of these boards right now. Even I acknowledge that Melee Nuking and Healing are supplementary to our core role.

3. Hybrid jobs that actually fill a hybrid role are... let's go with Blu and maybe Dnc right now. SE has basically told Dancers they refuse to make the job more viable as a support healer and after the heavy strike nerf to Blu (killing both its accuracy and ftp) it's pretty clear they don't care about hybrid jobs at tough events. Whm is still going to be the de facto best healer in the game whether or not Sch and Rdm get Cure V. I really don't know how you think more jobs being able to fill a healing role if necessary is a bad thing, Cure IV does not cut it.

The italicized, pure bull. But that's a debate for another time.

We're not debating whether or not Cure IV cuts it. I'm in support of more healing prowace for RDM. I am against CURE V specifically, or rather the general idea that RDM and SCH should be spike healers rather than HoT.

It doesn't matter that WHM is the Defacto best healer.(fifth time saying it) In any situation in which RDM and SCH can manage the problem, WHM will get bumped. And there should be no reason why WHM and (RDM,SCH) cannot share a party outside of HNM fights.

You want more healing capacity for RDM? Fine, get better heal over time spells. Spike damage that can quickly address heavy TP attacks does not address the fact that our enfeebles are glaringly lacking the capacity to reduce that type of damage. And Red Mage should not be able to simply fix that problem in hindsight with an overpowered cure. Red Mage at it's core has always been about stacking the deck in favor of the players before the damage is dealt. Again, curing will not be an issue of RDM has a debuff that can take the edge off of TP attacks.

And Scholar has an answer to their healing woes staring the development team in the face in the form of Helixes.

There is no reason to give RDM or SCH Cure V over other solutions and plenty of reasons not to. You want to be better healers, give them better healing over time. But stick to their core mechanics to solve the problem, instead of giving them a toxic spell that will actually hurt the game itself more than it will help.


I'm going to sit a while and write down my current ideal for balancing out the curing issue for the game. I have a feeling you wouldn't be so adamantly opposed to it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

1. Yes cureskin matters because you do not need to cure any amount of Hp to even have it up, that's free 400 HP right there. And why do I care about support on lower tier NMs? Being inferior at curing lower and higher tier NMs does not make you more wanted in a party setting, especially when the majority of your buffs are self target. You could bring an inferior job to cure those if you want and guess what, Whm is still better support (even if it means /thf for TH and bringing a better DD) than Rdm and Sch on those mobs unless you're supertanking fodder and having Phalanx drop the hits to single digit damage/0. Even there guess what, being able to drop SS on someone at will is still sufficient enough for rounding up fodder mobs.

2. I said I was against further melee adjustments because Rdm melee is fine where it is post Temper. The only mage job clearly above Rdm in melee right now is Blu and that's a hybrid. Neither job is viable meleeing on harder content.
Supporting the party includes healing... There's options for DD/Tank jobs (although one is clearly ahead on harder content), at least 2 options for support jobs (although Brd is still in the lead for pure support Cor is getting better and Smn is used for niche situations/paired with Brd for damage mitigation and support), there's at least 2 hybrid jobs. There's only one job that can effectively heal on not fodder. That is bad design.

3. Your healing over time is Regen 2 with Emp+2 set bonus, enjoy it. Whm and Rdm will never share a pt at non HNM events outside of the Whm needing refresh II (which whm doesn't need at non hnm events, and even there can suffice without it if you brought decent support, which for some reason you haven't), can you figure out why yet? Whm is the better healer, sufficient enfeebler, better enhancer, only the worst nuker since SE nerfed Holy and hadn't given them any higher light damage magic until now. Rdm is the job getting bumped, not Whm.

[cidbahamut]

I'm sorry Cid, what was that? I can't hear over the ignore you're under.

I tried to come up with a clever retort, but all your post does is illustrate for everyone that you really have nothing worthwhile to say, since you can't be bothered listening to everything presented on both sides of any given issue.