Ideas for Paladin Modification

[Dale]

Counterstance drops a MNK's DEF to VIT/2 +1. In other words they are turning they're DEF into crap compared to PLD's DEF. That said the increase to Counter rate far out weighs the drastic loss of DEF because again DEF is useless when it comes to mitigating damage.

Sorry but i'm still lost. How does a monk using counterstance mean defense is useless when it comes to mitigating damage? We are not all monks. We don't all have counterstance. This may be your worst argument yet. This one is even worst than your Red Mage nukes suck cause Black Mage nukes are better one.

[Zagen]

Sorry but i'm still lost. How does a monk using counterstance mean defense is useless when it comes to mitigating damage? We are not all monks. We don't all have counterstance. This may be your worst argument yet. This one is even worst than your Red Mage nukes suck cause Black Mage nukes are better one.

Counterstance adds 40% Counter rate onto a MNK's 10% base. In other words an additional 40% of all melee hits from an enemy will do 0 damage. If DEF was valuable MNKs wouldn't be so willing to give it up for 40% of hits doing 0 damage.

That doesn't even account for the extra damage dealt from those counters.

[Dale]

Counterstance adds 40% Counter rate onto a MNK's 10% base. In other words an additional 40% of all melee hits from an enemy will do 0 damage. If DEF was valuable MNKs wouldn't be so willing to give it up for 40% of hits doing 0 damage.

That doesn't even account for the extra damage dealt from those counters.

Ok so let me get this straight. You are saying that because monks have an ability that let's them counter damage 40% of the time in exchange for a penality to their defense that means defense as a whole sucks and is useless?

I stand by my earlier comment...and this is the worst argument of why something sucks you have yet to produce.

Maybe if we were all monks and had the option of turning on a move that counters 40% of attacks directed at us this argument may have some merit...

Defense may not be good for monks (I woudn't know, i don't play one), but from a Paladin or Red Mage perspective, I assure you it helps a lot and isn't useless.

[Greatguardian]

He's saying Defense sucks because, no matter how high your defense gets, NMs of any worth are still going to be capping or near capping cRatio on you. And, once cRatio is capped, no additional damage is taken by having lower defense.

Nutshell: It doesn't matter if your Defense is 700 or 7, if the monster is capping cRatio then you'll take the exact same amount of damage. QED: Defense is utterly worthless unless you're actually making a significant dent in cRatio, which is quite literally impossible on the vast majority of harder NMs and not worth doing on weaker NMs that would die in a minute or two in DD gear.

Edit: Oh yeah. Counterstance reduces more damage than any non-Ochain shield ever will. Shield is an absolutely horrible method of mitigating damage and requires an Ochain to be at all useful.

[Dale]

He's saying Defense sucks because, no matter how high your defense gets, NMs of any worth are still going to be capping or near capping cRatio on you. And, once cRatio is capped, no additional damage is taken by having lower defense.

Nutshell: It doesn't matter if your Defense is 700 or 7, if the monster is capping cRatio then you'll take the exact same amount of damage. QED: Defense is utterly worthless unless you're actually making a significant dent in cRatio, which is quite literally impossible on the vast majority of harder NMs and not worth doing on weaker NMs that would die in a minute or two in DD gear.

Edit: Oh yeah. Counterstance reduces more damage than any non-Ochain shield ever will. Shield is an absolutely horrible method of mitigating damage and requires an Ochain to be at all useful.

Sorry but I find my non-ochain shield very useful, and it saves my ass all the time. As does my defense.

The logic that defense sucks because monks have counter stance and some very difficult NMs will hit you hard no matter what is retarded. I fight NMs everyday i find very worth doing and my defense and shield block deffinitely help. If i were to change into DD gear I would be the one dying in a minute or two...not the NM

Your argument is also reliant on cherry picking certain fights you deem "worthy" as the basis for your entire post. We should just end this here and agree to disagree.

You think defense and all non-ochain shields suck. I don't.

Talking with you is like talking with someone who says submarines suck in war cause you happen to be engaged in a land war currently. It's impossible to argue with and makes little sense. Yes. In some situations defense is not that useful. But that doens't mean it just sucks and is useless. This game doens't revolve around just the fights you enjoy doing or think are worthy to do.

[Greatguardian]

When did I say "Only certain super hard NMs cap cRatio on you"?

There are two kinds of NMs. NMs where cRatio is capped, and NMs that are dead in 60 seconds anyways.

The vast majority of NMs will cap cRatio on you. Especially outside Abyssea. Any perceived increase in survivability from defensive gear is purely placebo =/

[Dale]

When did I say "Only certain super hard NMs cap cRatio on you"?

There are two kinds of NMs. NMs where cRatio is capped, and NMs that are dead in 60 seconds anyways.

The vast majority of NMs will cap cRatio on you. Especially outside Abyssea. Any perceived increase in survivability from defensive gear is purely placebo =/

Ok time to get specific. Which monsters are you talking about that defense doens't help on? Let's hear this "vast majority" of monsters that defense is usless against?

[Greatguardian]

Kirin, Shijin, all outside Sea Jailers, Abyssea +2 NMs in Scars/Heroes zones, all Body seal NMs in Heroes zones, AV, PW, VNMs T3 and above inside/outside Abyssea, ZNMs T3 or above, ToAU HNM, RotZ HQ HNM, KS99 HNM, all of Voidwatch, Fomor NMs in the past, in general any NM that is or was worth a crap and/or above level 95 aside from a few notable exceptions scattered here and there with extremely low attack values.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...ction_and_pDIF

inb4 anecdotes about taking a bajillion less damage when stacking kaiser gear and getting instantly killed when putting on DD gear.

[Dale]

Kirin, Shijin, all outside Sea Jailers, Abyssea +2 NMs in Scars/Heroes zones, all Body seal NMs in Heroes zones, AV, PW, VNMs T3 and above inside/outside Abyssea, ZNMs T3 or above, ToAU HNM, RotZ HQ HNM, KS99 HNM, all of Voidwatch, Fomor NMs in the past, in general any NM that is or was worth a crap and/or above level 95 aside from a few notable exceptions scattered here and there with extremely low attack values.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...ction_and_pDIF

inb4 anecdotes about taking a bajillion less damage when stacking kaiser gear and getting instantly killed when putting on DD gear.

Ok well I will put this argument to the test. I will go fight a Body Seal NM in Abyssea tonight and comapre how much I get hit for with defense and without it Will be in touch and we'll see if your argument is crap or not. I strongly suspect that it is, but I'll wait till I do the test myself before I judge.

[Zagen]

Ok well I will put this argument to the test. I will go fight a Body Seal NM in Abyssea tonight and comapre how much I get hit for with defense and without it Will be in touch and we'll see if your argument is crap or not. I strongly suspect that it is, but I'll wait till I do the test myself before I judge.

I hope you know how to properly test things.... As in a sample size of 100 is a nice start, making sure all variables are accounted for as in -PDT on either job you use, DEF levels for each job are fixed, etc. There are a lot of variables to account for when testing and somehow I doubt you will do this.

Edit: After that test you should see how a given fight with say a MNK + WHM and a PLD + WHM takes from start to finish, how much damage is taken with each job. You'll find what everyone else has when you do this, that is that because of the kill speed and how broken defensive mechanics are currently the MNK takes less damage.