Ideas for Paladin Modification

[Greatguardian]

PLD was out dated as a tank in almost every event before Abyssea the difference back then a lot of people didn't want to risk it either due to fear or poor support for a nonPLD tank.

This.

The only thing that prevented PLD from being more widely obsolete pre-Abyssea was people. It was all in the mind. Groups that weren't afraid of change were using DD tanks years ahead of Abyssea.

[Aeonk]

This.

The only thing that prevented PLD from being more widely obsolete pre-Abyssea was people. It was all in the mind. Groups that weren't afraid of change were using DD tanks years ahead of Abyssea.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say it was that jobs were more well defined in whatever niche role they filled in prior endgame. But they were still capable of crossing the line per se.

Pre-Abyssea when you heard DRK what popped into your head? Zerging. It was what DRK was used for, and that was fine. A good DRK knew how to tank, and tools like Apoc generally help. But that was more the player than the job's specifications.

RDM tanking was rather popular on mobs that Atonement spam wasn't applicable on. And at the end of the day, it took a good RDM to tank. Not one that grew up as a Refresh/Haste bot.

I'm pretty sure there's a video floating around Youtube somewhere of a BLM/NIN tanking Byakko. Any job can be thrown into a tank role, provided the player knows how to tank and has adequate support to do it. PLD was just the default tank because they were easier to gear (homam, MDT, fire resist: done) and easier to play. And it was sufficient, it wasn't detrimental to have a PLD over another job. May not of been 100% optimal but it easily got the job done.


Now with abyssea, damage has spiked so high that it is quite literally the only hate tool that makes sense to use. Thus making the average turtle PLD not just obsolete, but incapable of tanking at all.

[Bilonn]

Since Abyssea seems to be Paladin's main problem, I was thinking that adding new Atma designed to help the job DD tank in the zones would assist it greatly.

For example Atma of Monkey Grip: Allows the character to wield a 2 handed weapon with a shield. Along with stats somewhat comparable to high level atma like VV RR and Paladin would have a much better chance of keeping hate.

Or instead of an atma, since this is to fix a specific job, make it a job trait of some kind. Give it to PLD at .. say Lvl 60, that a shield can be equipped along with a 2-h weapon, such as a polearm or greatsword. It shouldn't do very much, though it might take a tiny graphical tweak to draw the shield on the back of the hand while using 2-h weapon--maybe changing stances so the shield doesn't block the face of the char. But make a trait this way.

This won't fix the job, but it would be a unique addition for a pld--giving a little more to them...

[Greatguardian]

Well, the average turtle PLD was always obsolete and incapable of tanking at all. That's a given. DDs may hit hate cap in 15-30 seconds these days, but that does not mean they were unable to easily hit it in 60-90 seconds pre-Abyssea.

You're absolutely right when you say all jobs are/were capable of crossing the line. Heck, in some cases (SAM, MNK, DRK, sometimes NIN), "DD" jobs were better tanks than PLDs were long before Abyssea came out. Really, the only reason a lot of good players were unable to tank regularly on those jobs were misconceptions by their group, especially bad/mediocre White Mages who had a tendency to only focus on curing "Tank" jobs while everyone else could just die and it would be "their own fault" (this makes me rage so hard).

When it really comes down to it, Paladin has never really taken much less damage than any other job with equivalent defensive gear. Most every melee job can cap PDT and MDT in sets if they so choose, it's simply a matter of getting a competent player who actually has those sets. Shield has always been a bit of a crapshoot, and other jobs can most definitely match Pld's Enmity gain and damage reduction in other ways (Seigan, Stuns, Counters, etc).

I suppose what I'm saying is, in an environment with higher end players who were able to deal lots of damage on their DDs and had proper gear sets, Paladin has been obsolete for a very very long time. It just seems a bit more widespread now because, in Abyssea, even full Aurore trash can deal respectable damage with Atmas and Cruor buffs while rocking 3,500 HP, while even full teal Whms have infinite MP.

The problem has become more visible to social/casual players, but most higher-end endgamers have been seeing this for years now.

[Raka]

Here is an idea I had as one way to help out Paladin. Still working out the bugs, but feel free to post your thoughts on it.


Name: Endurance
Type: Job Ability
Recast: 5:00
Duration: 3:00
Target: Self

Description: Negates enmity loss, gradually lowers allies enmity with each successive shield block.

Notes:

- Will only decay party/alliance members enmity on the current target the Paladin is fighting.
- Will negate enmity loss from all forms of damage.

[Greatguardian]

He's saying Defense sucks because, no matter how high your defense gets, NMs of any worth are still going to be capping or near capping cRatio on you. And, once cRatio is capped, no additional damage is taken by having lower defense.

Nutshell: It doesn't matter if your Defense is 700 or 7, if the monster is capping cRatio then you'll take the exact same amount of damage. QED: Defense is utterly worthless unless you're actually making a significant dent in cRatio, which is quite literally impossible on the vast majority of harder NMs and not worth doing on weaker NMs that would die in a minute or two in DD gear.

Edit: Oh yeah. Counterstance reduces more damage than any non-Ochain shield ever will. Shield is an absolutely horrible method of mitigating damage and requires an Ochain to be at all useful.

[Dale]

He's saying Defense sucks because, no matter how high your defense gets, NMs of any worth are still going to be capping or near capping cRatio on you. And, once cRatio is capped, no additional damage is taken by having lower defense.

Nutshell: It doesn't matter if your Defense is 700 or 7, if the monster is capping cRatio then you'll take the exact same amount of damage. QED: Defense is utterly worthless unless you're actually making a significant dent in cRatio, which is quite literally impossible on the vast majority of harder NMs and not worth doing on weaker NMs that would die in a minute or two in DD gear.

Edit: Oh yeah. Counterstance reduces more damage than any non-Ochain shield ever will. Shield is an absolutely horrible method of mitigating damage and requires an Ochain to be at all useful.

Sorry but I find my non-ochain shield very useful, and it saves my ass all the time. As does my defense.

The logic that defense sucks because monks have counter stance and some very difficult NMs will hit you hard no matter what is retarded. I fight NMs everyday i find very worth doing and my defense and shield block deffinitely help. If i were to change into DD gear I would be the one dying in a minute or two...not the NM

Your argument is also reliant on cherry picking certain fights you deem "worthy" as the basis for your entire post. We should just end this here and agree to disagree.

You think defense and all non-ochain shields suck. I don't.

Talking with you is like talking with someone who says submarines suck in war cause you happen to be engaged in a land war currently. It's impossible to argue with and makes little sense. Yes. In some situations defense is not that useful. But that doens't mean it just sucks and is useless. This game doens't revolve around just the fights you enjoy doing or think are worthy to do.

[Greatguardian]

When did I say "Only certain super hard NMs cap cRatio on you"?

There are two kinds of NMs. NMs where cRatio is capped, and NMs that are dead in 60 seconds anyways.

The vast majority of NMs will cap cRatio on you. Especially outside Abyssea. Any perceived increase in survivability from defensive gear is purely placebo =/

[Dale]

When did I say "Only certain super hard NMs cap cRatio on you"?

There are two kinds of NMs. NMs where cRatio is capped, and NMs that are dead in 60 seconds anyways.

The vast majority of NMs will cap cRatio on you. Especially outside Abyssea. Any perceived increase in survivability from defensive gear is purely placebo =/

Ok time to get specific. Which monsters are you talking about that defense doens't help on? Let's hear this "vast majority" of monsters that defense is usless against?

[Greatguardian]

Kirin, Shijin, all outside Sea Jailers, Abyssea +2 NMs in Scars/Heroes zones, all Body seal NMs in Heroes zones, AV, PW, VNMs T3 and above inside/outside Abyssea, ZNMs T3 or above, ToAU HNM, RotZ HQ HNM, KS99 HNM, all of Voidwatch, Fomor NMs in the past, in general any NM that is or was worth a crap and/or above level 95 aside from a few notable exceptions scattered here and there with extremely low attack values.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...ction_and_pDIF

inb4 anecdotes about taking a bajillion less damage when stacking kaiser gear and getting instantly killed when putting on DD gear.