Ideas for Paladin Modification

[Tim]

Yes the NM hate reset is one thing that I think killed paladin tanks. I wish that they would change that.

[Een]

Well of course Atonement, but since there is a 750 cap on damage that is why I was talking about Vorpal.

It's just ideas...I just DON'T want to see Paladin Die. (I started playing this game just because of the job) and I DON'T want to see Monk be the only thing used for tanking.

I'm just tossing ideas out there, but ya 1 min sentinel and rampart would be way too convenient. But it was just the ideas I have and have had for quite some time now. I am myself a devoted Paladin, but I'm a ninja 90% more often....just because the way the game turned out.

SE better do something....they've always fixed jobs that needed fixing, if Paladins won't be main tanks anymore, they at least need to allow them to turn the tables and let that defense turn into offense.

But until they allow more damage for Atonement, I can break 750 Vorpals easily. I don't even have my Creed Gloves yet and I have almost 400 sword skill. They should have never capped enmity or dmg done by Atonement.....

THEY MUST FIX PALADIN!!!!!

[Een]

Please, no. I don't really object to the idea of the JA. It wouldn't really change PLD's situation, but it wouldn't hurt any either. But please, call it something else. I'd be embarrassed to have either of those names in my JA list. ; ;



The thing is, atm, Vorpal blade is vastly superior to Atonement. Sad though it is. Atonement's dmg cap aside, it's still far to limited.

Well I was just suggesting things. But the name would fit no matter how corny it is. But yes, I was just throwing stuff out there..I was really tired when I wrote all that this morning...it kept me up actually cause I wanted to say everything. But yes, the name is horrible that I suggested. But a word meaning something along those lines could be used to fit.

Cause in medieval times..if you were the opposition and you ran into a True Paladin you were screwed. The real life Knights of old were hard as hell to kill. In retrospect SE's Paladin is completely wrong to what a real Paladin would have been. Polearm masters, they could use their sword and shield to kill and to a normal fighter, a Knight would rape many before he would fall. If I was in war in medieval days, the last thing I would want to run into would be a Knight in full heavy armor wielding a sword that could cut you in half, or a Shield that could be bashed into your face breaking it completely. Their armor basically impenetrable, so not only could they chop you in two, you just couldn't kill them. SE should respect that side and FIX PALADIN!

And, EVERY other game but FFXI, a Paladin is not just one of the most out front job, they are also DD'ers. SE tried to make 1 job to do 1 thing and 1 thing only. And it is the ONLY job that they did this to.

Samurai with full Third Eye merits and Relic legs can achieve what 20 second recast? They can be defensive, there is even gear that allows for that and dmg reduction. Their AF1 and 2 was basically designed around that. The concept was that Sam was to be a mid level DD'er that had tanking abilities. War can tank, /nin has provoke, retaliation, defender, hate abilities. WAR has offerings to alot of defensive armors....of course NIN tanks, DRK could in a way.. if someone had a reason, there are VIT/HP and Def builds they COULD put on there...but its all bout changing the job...for a GOOD reason, there is no good reason to have a DRK try to tank, that's why PLD is there to take the damage. But since that traditional build will not work anymore, why not pull defense and allow some of the true offense of a Paladin to be unleashed.

But for some reason, PLD is the ONLY job SE wanted to try this complete 1 sidedness on. There was and still is no reason for them to continue to keep paladin such a 1 sided job only. It's either build and use PLD right, or you are a LOLPLD trying to DD, will be looked over for anything other than PLD tanking.....it's time for a major change!

Edited and added the following:

STR and ACC/Attk build for WS macros aren't hard for PLD, especially since the prices on most things have dropped like crazy.

Just to sum it up I use Joyeuse, Optical Hat, Haubergeon +1, Alky Bracelets, Cerb Mantle, Warwolf Belt, Ryl. Knights Breeches, Rutter Sabatons, STR rings or ACC rings, (I use STR cause I use Optical hat on head), 2x STR earrings are cheap now, or one could use Assault Earring, Cassie Earring, Uh...Fowling Earring, Chivalrous Chain, and That +3 STR shield...(forget name, enhances "Killer" effects).

There is room for improvement there....but I have no problem actually. I always used to, like when I was leveling up to 75, use Sentinel, then Berserk so I wouldn't take too much dmg and then Vorpal. Canceling Berserk when Sentinel starts to fade. Or Warcry then Vorpal.

I used to shock people that I actually carried that with me, but it made me feel more useful, even at that time 500 ish damage was great. Then I capped sword with merits, used Fortitude Neck, Suppa in my WS macros and I can still at level 80 do some decent damage with Vorpal Blade.

But I do see what you are saying...even with the mini-berserk or a constant activated berserk we wouldn't out DD another job. BUT, it would be 'acceptable' to add a PLD to the party being capable of putting out a steady amount of damage with an Offensive Job Ability.

But I think, for something like this to work. They would have to Add an Enmity generation to the offensive skill. That is how PLD's would be able to get and maintain hate also. Not just DD to keep hate, DD'ing actually leading to hate on a superior level to ANY and ALL melee jobs. When a Paladin couldn't keep the hate with just defensive and was or is forced to take a back seat while the monk tanks, switching to a offensive set with offensive Ability making it possible through melee DD'ing, WS'ing, Curing to gain that hate back.

And then, when you could focus enough of it back onto you, switch back to defensive mode. I mean it would be a perk if the MORE VIT and DEF you have the more you could turn into offense.

I don't know, it's just an idea. Not really a Berserk effect, but more of turning that Creed Armor, the DEF, VIT, HP, AGI, etc and that deciding how much attack, accuracy it would give. Rather than just having a JA like Berserk and switching to offensive gear. See what I'm trying to say? What I'm thinking is a little more complicated than a constant berserk from a JA.

More of a 'Stance' I guess you could say. Defensive stance, using your gear as it is shown/equipped. Then an Offensive Stance, turning that VIT/DEF/DEF Bonuses into a workable Offense, ACC, Attack, with something like "melee hits and WS's generate more enmity" in the description. Making both Stances linked at 1 min recasts, (Like Hasso and Seigan), with a 5 minute duration. That way you could go offensive on a certain level without a sub job making you that.

But the effect would have to be just helping a paladin deal extra damage and not being able to tank as that. Kinda like tanking with Berserk on all the time, would be stupid. You would have to change stances when taking damage.

But, something like this would cause a Paladin to be Acceptable in a party...even if he wasn't the tank, his damage wouldn't that of other jobs, BUT he would be useful and it would be worth pulling out your weapon and attacking. WS'ing, support DD'er. 45 Second Shield Bash, make it = to Stun spell.

[Martel]

"Real life knights" were easily potted by any peasant with a decent long bow. Or by any footsoldier with a crossbow. Plate and mail was far from impenetrable. A decent english long bow could put an arrow right through a steel breastplate at something like 50 yards. Real knights were slow, incredibly expensive, and horribly inefficient as soldiers. They did make a pretty impressive spectacle though.. Till one of them falls off his horse and has to be lifted back on with a freaking crane. <,<

Every other FF... is a single player game.(cept 14, but lol.) It's fine if PLDs are all around badass in those. There's no balance between players and roles to maintain, for the most part.

Good reason? There is a good reason to have DDs tank. It works better. Mobs die faster, and other jobs have more general utility. And, vit/def builds? No one tanks in those. PDT gear man. But only when you need it, most of the time your gonna need DD gear on to have any chance of having hate.

[Gallus]

I apologize if you thought my previous comment was directed at you Tim. it wasn't pointed at anyone in particular. I've posted my writing in a new thread, as it's an overhaul to the class.

[Mordanthos]

A lot of people talk about changing Enmity and other such things, but I had a long discussion on another board about this and a few things I will be listed seem to make the most sense, while not giving too much of a heavy change to the game (Unless I note so otherwise.)

Note - This is about changing existing traits/abilities, etc not adding new ones (for the most part)

1) Change Job Ability - "Cover" Into a Job Trait. (and Add Cover II or even Cover III as well)

= If the paladin stands infront of a party member who has main hate (most hate), they will cover that party member.

Each increase in the trait (II and III) will increase the chance of a paladin blocking with a shield while covering.

2) Change Job Trait - "Defense Bonus" to "Damage Reduction"

= A increase and defense does not seem to make much change as the levels go higher in a sense of reducing damage, however turning the traits into Damage Reduction, lets say. "Damage Reduction I - V" Gives a 5% gain each time for lets say lv 99 with 25% dmg reduction. This would allow paladin to take more hits and increase it's use without making other jobs less useful or over powering pld as a DD.

3) Updating Job Trait "Shield Mastery"

= A job that is the main user for shields should have a bit more of a boost to using a shield, in contrast to wanting to dual wield as a /nin or /dnc

For example, lets say it should increase the damage rate when using Shield Bash (which would make it a bit more useful overall) so there is currently 3 Shield Mastery traits, so lets do the dmg increase by 25% with each trait, so lets say Shield bash does 30 dmg at lv 90 + 4 traits = +75% so +22 dmg making it do 55 dmg with shield bash

Or if not a damage increase, than with each trait, the stun effect last longer?


NOW, we go on to minor adds to the job.

1) Add Job Trait - "Counter" (Or something similiar)

= I know this thing is big for Monk, but hear me out. A paladin is a Shield and sword combo class. So we can give it a Counter like trait, where if you successfully block with a shield you have a 5-10% chance of countering with your weapon (Sword in this case) But the trait can only work if you have a shield.

2) A job trait or ability (Preferable a Trait) that allows more damage when using a Sword.

= My logic on this is that Paladin is a A+ using a Sword, while like Red Mage and Blue Mage are lower than that (even if slightly so). They should be more potent when using it, So what about something like

"When using a Sword and Shield, increase damage to the main hand weapon. (Similiar to how Fencer increases damage if a Warrior using a one handed weapon, but it has to be a Shield and Sword combo for paladin)


These are all my suggestions and fixes for job. What you guys think?

If the main goal is to tank, and your lvl 90....most Paladins are going to sub warrior, and with a warrior sub at 45, u get Fencer..so u want a fencer trait on top of a fencer trait. They get dmg bonus from warrior sub, they get defender from warrior, defense bonus, fencer, double attack, i mean, they have quite a bit that i dont think its really neccesary to give them more. The easiest solution is to take a cap off of threat, if im at the cap threat, and someone does some 928347239 dmg WS its obviously going to cap them too, but if theres no cap.....i have time to generate threat over the Enmity that the 32894723 dmg skill will do, and effectively still hold threat after that WS is used, for how long? idk how long, depends what else they dish out, or exactly how close to my threat lvl that the dmg brought them.


Its not hard. Easiest solution is to remove the threat cap, dur durr durrrr

[Mordanthos]

Not only that...Provoke should be a skill that puts you equal to, or just above the person who has the most threat, if its on a 30 second CD, i dont think this is much to ask for. Its a skill designed to "Goad your enemies into attacking you". Kinda stupid when you provoke and nothing happens and you have to wait another 30 seconds and have nothing happen again. Having provoke place you on the top of the threat equal to or just slightly over the highest threat player seems to be a no brainer to me. But it wont happen. So hey, threat will never be balanced in a way that it can be effectively controlled.

[DamonWolfe]

The easiest thing, isn't always the best thing to do, just saying Mordanthos.

A ability like provoke that is for the pld job (not as /war) would work better, as just making Provoke better wouldn't help pld, and hurt it more (more reason not to use pld if it can work just as well for other jobs)

A provoke like ability that allows all hate (or most) from party members (within range) to be transfered to the paladin (Think of it as a AoE of Accomplice and Collaborator) and make the recast time as 30 seconds like normal provoke.

That way a pld/war can normal provoke and when it loses hate control it can use this new ability to transfer the hate back to itself.

and I really think they should just make Cover a job trait, since it being a passive ability would allow better protect for the party without having to worry about recast time or other issues

(Like As long as the paladin is infront of someone who has the most hate in their party, they can cover them.)

[Seha]

It may not be the thing that will change the paladin's life at this time, but I've always thought it should have this trait:

Stalwart: Prevents knockback.

Very simple. Nothing gamebreaking, but should be a given for a paladin to be able to stand still while others can't!

[Satyr]

I posted this in another thread but Im reposting here hoping that it might get seen in a thread with a better title.

The solution to fixing PLDs is not to nerf the other tanking jobs or create mobs that only PLDs can tank. The solution is to fix PLDs. To do this we must identify the key issues...which are:

How can PLD damage mitigation be brought in line with the other tanking jobs?
How can PLD damage be brought up to par in terms of being a favorable tank for kill speed as well as keeping high enmity?

I suggest the following very easy tweaks that would address both of these issues:

1. Bring PLD Parry skill up to A+.
-I do not understand why a job that is meant to be "the" tank does not have an A+ in defensive skills, and in the case of parry PLD gets a C rating. Parrying is something that (in the real world) is an integral part of swordsmanship. In FFXI PLD has an A+ in sword, thus using a little real world logic they should have an A+ in parry also. And like I said...they are "the" tank of FFXI...they should get A+ defensive skills. Parrying more helps keep enmity high as well as reduce damage taken.

2. With the above change, give PLD the Tactical Parry Trait.
-It just makes sense and fits the job.

3. Bring PLD Evasion up to higher than a C.
-I am not asking for an A+ here just improve it a bit. It is a defensive skill and thus should be higher for that simple fact.

4. Make Defense Bonus III and up significantly reduce the amount of enmity lost from taking damage.
-Something like Defense bonus III reduces enmity loss by 10%, IV by an additional 15%, and V by an additional 25%, thus a lv 90 PLD would have 50% less enmity lost from taking damage.

5. Give PLD the Fencer trait.
-The fact that PLD does not have fencer boggles me. It is a trait that seems as though should have been designed for PLDs and only for PLDs. They are the one job in the game that is known for being the "sword and board" job. PLDs should get Fencer I around lv 30-35 and by LV 90 should have 5 ranks of it.

6. Boost bast PLD HP up slightly to where they would have only a little less Max HP than MNKs.
-Any class designed to blood tank should not have less hp than a class that was originally designed to DD. That being said I am only asking for more base HP while allowing MNK to still have the highest.

All of these are fairly simple changes that could help to bring PLD up to par with NIN and MNK with regards to tanking.