The debate-free Poll.

[Doombringer]

Keep whm in pt > have rdm sabo dia 3 > drop rdm > never have sch in pt because they can embrava outside pt.

scary ruthless.

[Shiyo]

Stated my preference right there crimson. We should get updates to ALL our components.

And yes a SCH/RDM is identical to if not better then a RDM in all ways except,

Refresh II
Dia III

They have better healing, better party support, better nuking, and better crowd control / enfeebling. The only thing left to RDM is it's melee capacity, which while being solid is sorely lacking in the gear department. WS's are fixed via CDC, but I can't expect every RDM to have an almace.

Actually the complete opposite, RDM/SCH is better than SCH in every way because the only things that matter are refresh2, haste and debuffs.

In zerg situations, sure, SCH is superior, but what exactly do we zerg besides AV/DL again?

Once SCH can /rdm and gets access to haste, SCH will just be worse than a RDM/SCH always.

SCH needs another set of unique amazing stratagems like they had at 75(Manifestation and accession), these were the two things making SCH unique and wanted.

Actually having more tiers of nukes is helping a lot though, a few more buffs to it's light arts and tier2 weather/tier2 hellixes and SCH will destroy RDM in usefulness and fun

[Fredjan]

The irony in this is that I don't disagree, I just tend to go into detail...

Umm RDM has the following..

Refresh II
Dia III

and ... that's it.

For "enfeebles" Slow II is 5% stronger then Slow 1, they both cap at dMND=75. Para II is so unreliable, that there still isn't hard numbers on it's effects, years after it's creation. Elegy is 50% Slow cap, no merits required. SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it, aoe sleep and the rest. BLMs have had sleepga II for ages along with BRD and BLU.

So honestly, I have yet to see where this "supporting" the party is coming form. What exactly are you doing? Casting Haste / Refresh / Cure IV on everyone? Because every time I hear "supporting" it's always in relation to those three spells, something a WHM/RDM can do and do better. A SCH/RDM can do all but haste, a SCH/WHM can do haste and at 99 a SCH/RDM completely replaces us.

So umm, yeah... supporting ... got it ... way to leach a spot.

Yet at earlier levels RDM did shine more in the "support" department, I don't think that can be argued. RDM's ability to support the party "more" compared to other jobs has declined more and more ever since the level cap increases from 75 IMO.

1) That is EXACTLY what I said. RDM has Refresh II and group 2 merits. That's it. My post said RDM needs more party support from spells than that.

2) SCH cannot AoE Slow. Enfeebles are only AoE'able through Manifestation, and they have to be Black Magic.

3) WHM DESTROYS RDM in party support right now, /RDM or not. There's a reason my post pretty much said "I want RDM to be USEFUL as a whole." and therefore every aspect of our job needs to be looked into.

WHM gets stronger enhancing magic than RDM (barspells are a PRIME example, WHM/SCH destroys any other job combination using barspells, and that doesn't even factor WHM's ability to merit barspell efficiency). My WHM can provide 170 resistance to an element. I wish my RDM was able to do that. WHM even gains the Boost- spells, something I would've rather seen go to RDM. I can see it now, people wanting my WHM to Boost-STR...

Most jobs are capable of doing similar, if not stronger, enfeebles (BRD w/Elegy like you said, and since they've likely got a stronger Addle too). At least Elegy and Slow stack.

4) Saboteur was a step in attempting to fix Red Mage's enfeebling ability to make it shine more IMO, but more needs to be done, I couldn't agree more with that. It's a shame really, the job with the highest Enfeebling Magic having one of their primary enfeebles outperformed by a Bard song, and jobs like BLM getting Sleepga I/II, whereas RDM had to sub BLM or SCH to gain AoE sleep.

And the really funny thing about "supporting" the party, you can do it just as easily /NIN as you can /WHM with a staff on your back. Thanks to these things called gear macros. <Waiting for the staff argument to come in>

And counterpoint #5 to previous quote) When people actually had to earn EXP to get 75, RDM did offer more to a general party than most mages. That's where the "supporting" came from. WHM shined as a healer, BLM shined as a nuker, RDM was capable of doing both fairly well and offering Convert/Refresh to last longer compared to those jobs. I also had to main heal 95% of my parties especially after level 40 - situations where I NEVER had time to wield a sword, let alone use /NIN to gimp my healing ability just to wield a couple swords.

Obviously, things change. The old days where the level cap were 75 are long-gone, and that's probably why this thread even exists to begin with, because Red Mage NEEDS things to make it useful again. As things are, RDM barely even offers anything to a party through "support" that other jobs can do just as well, if not better... it's gotten so bad that I know I'm not offering much on RDM main anymore in the back-line that's unique to the job, yet that is also the most likely case for future additions to affect the RDM job in an end-game situation.

RDM can obviously melee better now than it's ever been capable of. Gain-STR, Chant du Cygne (which is seriously a huge boost to sword's offensive ability, and if I don't have that, or at least Vorpal Blade, I don't see the point in trying in this day and age, because those are decent steps to improving RDM's melee ability), Temper, etc. Getting the WS issue fixed is the first step. Getting the gear for it is the other step. If I want to /NIN and melee, one'd better believe I'll take the necessary steps first, otherwise it could end up being a hindrance.

But owell /wall of text discussion off. I've said all I intend to say in this thread, and re-literate this point: I do hope RDM gets stuff to make it useful as a whole again, because ever since they announced the level cap increase from 75+ onward, RDM has gotten less and less spell/"support" wise compared to other mages and other mage jobs have only gained more. Sure, RDM got the expected Tier IV nukes, Addle (and then WHM+BRD got it), Raise II (yawn worthy imo), Refresh II due to other jobs gaining Refresh from /RDM, Saboteur (the first hopeful thing I saw since the level cap increases), and now the mini-Chainspell JA at 95 (which is cute) and Temper (to aid in RDM's melee endeavors). All I can say is I hope further additions change things big time, because I barely take RDM gear out of my safe/locker/satchel/sack outside of leveling it or messing around because I miss using the job.

Not to mention when I want to melee, I simply gear up my Caladbolg DRK and go to town.

[noodles355]

Elegy is 50% Slow cap, no merits required. SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it

Elegy stacks with slow.

Sch's slow is terrible. If you can honestly say it's equal then you dont deserve to call yourself a Red Mage. Sch caps it's Slow at 29.3% Slow. Rdm caps Slow at 32.2% (AF3+2 Body says hi). With Saboteur it's 70.8% Slow (AF3+2 hands say hi). A 5/5 Slow II with AF3+2 body and hands with Saboteur caps at 103% Slow. That's more than a soul voice elegy.

Yeah, Rdm slow sucks.

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[Seperate Post, below is not a reply to Saevel]
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ITT: melee fans are mad because they think everyone voted "no" in the poll because they are against them, or to spite them.
I suggest you read my last post. We say no because we don't want the poll mis-interpreted as "we want melee more than, or instead of mage buffs". How many times will this needed to be pointed out? I bolded it and stated it at least three times in my last post, yet you cry and continue to say everyone is against you?

You know, I know, and every non-retarded RDM knows that there is a time and a place for melee. Difficult HNMs with dangerous TP moves is not the time to melee. But you already knew that. Any good Rdm, whether they like melee or not, knows when is an acceptable time to melee. Voidwatch, Rani, Raja, Azdaja, and such are not those times. Walk of echoes (basic mobs, not boss), Dynamis, Campaign, and other such casual content is fine.
There is nothing wrong with meleeing on acceptable content. Rdm melee gets stigma because you get idiots running around with Almace/Some other sword and full mage gear. There will always be stigma, get over it.

Yes, there are issues with Rdm melee. Many of them have been covered. Many of them have been covered repeatedly.
Red Mages who come to these forums and try to shut all the big melee fans up are not doing it to spite you. They are doing it for the same reason as replying "no" in this poll: We are scared of mis-interpretation. We are scared if SE reps come in and see nothing but the same Melee issues thrown over and over in the majority of topics, that they will think Rdms concider melee a bigger issue than our magic side, and they will focus 90% on melee upgrades and neglect our spellcasting side.

[Stylin]

Melee RDM should die in a fire.

Nope, no spite in that comment at all, no sir.

Speak for yourself Noodles. It's really hard to believe what you say when everybody around you is making loaded comments like that.

[saevel]

Sch's slow is terrible. If you can honestly say it's equal then you dont deserve to call yourself a Red Mage. Sch caps it's Slow at 29.3% Slow. Rdm caps Slow at 32.2% (AF3+2 Body says hi). With Saboteur it's 70.8% Slow (AF3+2 hands say hi). A 5/5 Slow II with AF3+2 body and hands with Saboteur caps at 103% Slow. That's more than a soul voice elegy.

And this is where you show you've never actually used RDM in a NM fight, the only location enfeebles matter.

SE nerfed Saboteur hardcore, its only 25~50% effective vs anything that's ITG. At most its 40% slow effect or 48% slow II effect. Also slow suffers from diminishing returns due to the haste formula. 100/129 = 0.77.5 (29% slow for a 22% effect), 100/140 = 71.4% (40% slow for a 28% effect). Even stacking with a BRD's 50% elegy your only looking at a 98% slow, 100/198 = 0.505, 50.5% effect. This effect is only present on the NM's melee swings, their TP / spells are completely unaffected. And BTW it's their tp moves and spells that will kill you, PLD's laugh at melee hits. Seriously we do. On top of this, we have to use a JA just to hit those numbers, a BRD just sings a song. And no a SCH has the exact same Slow as us, its just dMND that determines the power. Our enfeebles are absolutely crap (except Dia III) on NM's due to SE's design. No amount of gear will get around their design.

@Fedjan,

I agree with everything you said. The anti-melee-rdm stigma comes from 2003 / 2004 era parties where a RDM was invited to refresh the WHM / BLM / PLD, hence the refresh-whore nick name. Haste / Cure / Enfeebles were an after thought. You invited the WHM for healer, the BLM for damage, the PLD for tanking, then you chose between a RDM or a BRD for refresh (BRD's melee buffs were mostly ignored at that time) and some random DD's to form a SC. You fought ridiculously hard mobs for slow XP gain but big numbers. Later when we discovered that melee's hitting weaker mobs were better XP, parties looked for ways to fit in more melees. First to go where the BLMs because they all mana-burned anyway, then it was the WHM as it was figured a RDM was "good enough" healing and they had convert / refresh / haste / cure IV, the only things a PT wanted. Then the power of BRD buffs were discovered and that cemented RDM forever as the PT cure and haste dispenser. It was the party mechanics that forced RDM into the healing role, not SE.

Now we're in abyssea XP era, where you no longer have to fit as much as possible in six party slots of people in the same level range. Now you can invite anyone and get great XP. RDM no longer is forced to spam inefficient cures and go through mind numbing cycles. HNM though hasn't changed too much though. NM's have always been extremely resistant to enfeebles. We were never brought to HNM for "enfeebling", we were there for "Refresh" on the healers, and occasionally a Cure IV. About our only special situation was RDM/DRK CSS'ing dangerous mobs during their 2hr's or during a zerg. Let's not kid ourselves, we were NEVER masters of enfeebling nor alliance support. We were just a class with mediocre healing magic, mediocre elemental magic, mediocre enfeebling magic and mediocre melee skills, buffing is non-existent as two spells don't a buffer make. Outside of a few solo's that abused the games pathing AI and poor NM design (bind / grav / dot / nuke solos) we never did anything amazing.

Don't be delusional.

[Rezeak]

(This is all outside abyssea stuff)

SCH v RDM is a dumb arguement....

Mainly b/cause RDM is RDM and u use it for enfeebling or refesh II which defintly puts it in a surrport role.

Where SCH is different

SCH either Nukes or Heals or surrport alliance heal.

Nuking it has 2 niches

1. Low Mp nuking
basically being able to cast spell for 33% of there cost every 48 secs at the same time recovering around 10 mp a tick means that over time SCH should out nuke any job.

2. Low hate DMG
Honestly while you don't see it much helixs can put out 2-3k worth of DMG for say 300-400 DMG worth if hate

Outside this SCH nukes are pretty strong to the point it's single target stuff is stronger than BLMs nukes the only issue is it's all stratagem dependent and BL/SCHM will get hailstorm at 99 anyway which will close the gap.

Then as a healer/ally healer

Ok WHMs are the best healers but in a ally to have 1 healer being a SCH is a great thing since it doesn't need surrport (10-12 mp a tick from sublimation/gear) Stratagems that allow it to aoe heal any party or boost the potency of cure IV either way as a healer SCH is really good at being an ally healer.

Sorry but RDM really doesn't take anything from SCH or SCH from RDM were as SCH v BLM or SCH v WHM is a valid argument

[noodles355]

And this is where you show you've never actually used RDM in a NM fight, the only location enfeebles matter.

SE nerfed Saboteur hardcore, its only 25~50% effective vs anything that's ITG.

Link for proof? BG sources would suggest otherwise. There's an ability from your best debuffing sub (Stun says hi), called elemental seal, which should help you land it for 6 out of 10 minutes (and with 2 rdms, keep it up fulltime). If you don't need elemental seal, then you can keep it up solo with one rdm.

Whether NM's melee hits are the issue or not is irrelvant. You posted that a SCH's Slow was equal or better than a Rdm's, which is just completely not true. (Also, Manifestation doesn't work with Slow, meaning you can't AoE it. Just fyi.)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes it actually was nerfed (half potency on NMs iirc, including fucking Bubbly Bernie) but calling Sch slow 5% behind Rdm is still off.

Old pages haven't been update in awhile.

EDIT: not sure on which update it was but they did post "An issue wherein the effects of the red mage ability "Saboteur" would exceed intended limits has been resolved."

Only relevant thread I could find quickly - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...92735199041455

[saevel]

And now for some education to those who think their really "mage" RDMs and doubt me in the slightest.

If your going to Saboteur an enfeeble, your wasting your time with Slow I/II / Para I/II. Instead use Dia III and I'll show you why I went 5/5 on it.

Dia III is -15% defense, defense like haste is the denominator of the formula. Thus a 15% reduce it 100/(100-15) = 17.6% attack boost. With body its 18% for 100/(100-18) = 21.9% attack boost. And on something ITG its 50% effect (60% with +2 gloves), some of them are 25% effect (30% with +2 gloves).

So Dia III could be 18.75 ~ 22.5 or 22.5 ~ 27 reduction in defense. 27% is a 36.9% boost to everyone's attack. A WAR with 650 attack would be hitting as though he had 889 attack.

Now for the kicker, it stacks with other forms of defense down. Namely a DRG's angon which is -20%. Combined with our Dia III you get 35% def down or 53.8% attack boost. And finially Angon + Sab Dia III (assuming NM is only 50%) ends up with 47% def down or 88.6% attack boost. A 650 attack WAR would be hitting as though he had 1225 attack. Basically every single DD auto-caps or nearly does the attack ratio on whatever NM your fighting, even the super high def turtle ones. Even the lowly RDM @527 attack would be hitting as though he had 993 attack.

Heck on regular monsters with a non-sab Dia III (18%) I'm looking at 527 * 1.219 = 642 effective attack.

Ahh the wonders of math.

Our single greatest debuff is Dia III, and its power is unresistable and completely unaffected by gear (except emp body). Thus a RDM/NIN with gear swap macros can "enfeeble" just as much as a RDM/WHM / RDM/SCH pink-mage can. We can refresh / haste the same as a backliner. The only thing that is worse is we lose the 10~22 from staff. EXCEPT they just made a Cure +10% sword that has really nice DPS. SE's giving us a hint.