Base Empyrean Weapons Need Weaponskills

[Cybernetic_Empire]

Not sure how to preface this so let's just dive in.

Once you are finished with whatever VNM magian trials you need you are presented with a choice to either work towards an Empyrean weapon or a lesser weapon (NQ) that still allows you to use one of the new weapon skills. There seems to be a disparity between the difficulty of obtaining the new weapon skills on Empyrean weapons versus their NQ cousins. For this reason I believe that weapon skills (such as Victory Smite) should come on the base (level 80) version of the Empyrean weapons. I'll use the H2H magian trials as an example as that's what I'm familiar with.

In order to acquire Victory Smite on the Empyrean magian trial path you are required to gather 50 items from Chloris, who drops 1-2 items per fight. At the very least, you need to kill this NM 25 times (and she ain't that generous). Chloris requires four key items which are acquired from three poppable NM's and one timed spawn NM. It takes seven items to pop these NMs and four of those items come from four other poppable NMs. So in reality you're looking at gathering eleven items, fighting 8 popped NMs, fighting one spawned NM, and getting red !! on 4 NMs PER Chloris.

You also need to acquire 50 items from Ulhudashi, who drops 1-2 items per fight. Same as above you will have to fight this NM at least 25 times. In order to pop this NM you need two key items. One is gathered from a popable NM which only requires one item to pop and the other is from a timed spawn NM.

Now on to the NQ path which in this case would be Revenant Fists. Base Revenant Fists require 30 Coins of Advancement from the Walk of Echos battlefield. This is a battlefield anyone can enter and participate in once per game day for 30 (or was it 45?) minutes. Revenant Fists +1 gain access to Victory Smite and require 20 Kindred's Crests, which is an incredibly common drop in most higher level zones (I myself have 4 stacks of 99).

So to summarize for the tldnr crowd.

Total MINIMUM Work for Victory Smite On Verethragna Path:

Chloris: 25 times
Pop Items: 275
Popped NMs: 175
Timed NMs: 25

Ulhudashi: 25 times
Pop Items: 25
Popped NMs: 25
Timed NMs: 25

Total:
Pop Items: 300
Popped NMs: 275
Timed NMs: 50

Total Work for Victory Smite on Revenant Fists Path:

Coins of Advancement: 30
Kindreds Crest: 20

Does that NOT seem crazy to anyone else? My suggestion is this:

Level 80 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Empyrean weapon skills (such as Victory Smite)

Level 85 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Aftermath

Level 90 Empyrean Weapons: Increased stats, lowered delay, etc

[Arcon]

If you put it in relation, I don't think it's much at all, quite the opposite. For the rewards they offer, those weapons are very easy to obtain. You are after all getting weapons and weapon skills in return, that put relics to shame. And they're already a lot easier and faster to obtain. Making them easier and faster still seems a bit unfair to me.

[Cybernetic_Empire]

In relation to what? Relics? We're not discussing Relics vs Empyrean in this thread. Also, nowhere in this thread did I mention lessening the requirements for Empyrean weapons. I'm pointing out the disparity of effort required to get the new weapon skills on Empyrean weapons versus the NQ path. From what I laid out above it's clear that the NQ path is basically handed the weapon skill while the Empyrean holder goes through magnitudes more work to get the weapon skill. That makes no sense whatsoever and to compensate for it I suggest splitting the weapon skill and aftermath buffs into separate trials on Empyrean weapons. If anything they should put Victory Smite on the +2 version of revenant fists.

[Alhanelem]

The 2 trials are really not that bad. It's ifne the way it is, it's supposed to be a challenge.

(What really needs to be done is balance the difficulty of the trials. You pointed out the absolute worst empyrean weapon trial. Most aren't as bad as that one.)

[Kyrial]

I do think that the WS should be available (without aftermath) on the level 80 versions. That seems perfectly fair to me. Like he said, he's not saying anything about lessening the challenge of the trials themselves.

[Alhanelem]

Then all the relic weapon skills should be avialable on the first upgrade.

The WoE weapons are intended as an easier alternative (and an alternative for those without the abyssea addons) to the empyreans. It's not valid to compare the trials.

[Arcon]

It's not necessarily about Empyrean vs Relics, I was just pointing out, that by beating relics, they also beat pretty much every other weapon in the game. Meaning, they're the best weapons available. And a large part of that is not because of the stats on the weapon or even the Aftermath effect, but because of the WS. I also know that doesn't hold true for all empyrean WSs, but definitely for some of them. Having Ukko's Fury, Victory Smite or Blade: Hi available after a few days of soloable trials? Why even bother having other weapons then? Ok, maybe at Lv80 there's other weapons that would be them marginally, at least some of them, but the point is the same: something so exceptionally good as empyrean WSs should be earned, and I don't know if a few easy trials qualify for that.

Maybe people got spoiled by Abyssea and just expect everything to be as easy as getting +2 items. And imo, it still is, getting empyrean weapons, while tedious, is not actually hard even now, which is another reason why I think it shouldn't be lowered.

Ultimately this is a matter of opinion, I simply believe you should put hard work into getting good equipment.

[Alhanelem]

It's not necessarily about Empyrean vs Relics, I was just pointing out, that by beating relics, they also beat pretty much every other weapon in the game.

All the more reason they shouldn't grant the weaponskill until closer to completion. It's not like you actually need to use the weapon at any point before it's "finished" for the trials, so there is no reason that they need to have a specfici minimum quality standard at the first upgrade.

[Kwate]

Not sure how to preface this so let's just dive in.

Once you are finished with whatever VNM magian trials you need you are presented with a choice to either work towards an Empyrean weapon or a lesser weapon (NQ) that still allows you to use one of the new weapon skills. There seems to be a disparity between the difficulty of obtaining the new weapon skills on Empyrean weapons versus their NQ cousins. For this reason I believe that weapon skills (such as Victory Smite) should come on the base (level 80) version of the Empyrean weapons. I'll use the H2H magian trials as an example as that's what I'm familiar with.

In order to acquire Victory Smite on the Empyrean magian trial path you are required to gather 50 items from Chloris, who drops 1-2 items per fight. At the very least, you need to kill this NM 25 times (and she ain't that generous). Chloris requires four key items which are acquired from three poppable NM's and one timed spawn NM. It takes seven items to pop these NMs and four of those items come from four other poppable NMs. So in reality you're looking at gathering eleven items, fighting 8 popped NMs, fighting one spawned NM, and getting red !! on 4 NMs PER Chloris.

You also need to acquire 50 items from Ulhudashi, who drops 1-2 items per fight. Same as above you will have to fight this NM at least 25 times. In order to pop this NM you need two key items. One is gathered from a popable NM which only requires one item to pop and the other is from a timed spawn NM.

Now on to the NQ path which in this case would be Revenant Fists. Base Revenant Fists require 30 Coins of Advancement from the Walk of Echos battlefield. This is a battlefield anyone can enter and participate in once per game day for 30 (or was it 45?) minutes. Revenant Fists +1 gain access to Victory Smite and require 20 Kindred's Crests, which is an incredibly common drop in most higher level zones (I myself have 4 stacks of 99).

So to summarize for the tldnr crowd.

Total MINIMUM Work for Victory Smite On Verethragna Path:

Chloris: 25 times
Pop Items: 275
Popped NMs: 175
Timed NMs: 25

Ulhudashi: 25 times
Pop Items: 25
Popped NMs: 25
Timed NMs: 25

Total:
Pop Items: 300
Popped NMs: 275
Timed NMs: 50

Total Work for Victory Smite on Revenant Fists Path:

Coins of Advancement: 30
Kindreds Crest: 20

Does that NOT seem crazy to anyone else? My suggestion is this:

Level 80 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Empyrean weapon skills (such as Victory Smite)

Level 85 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Aftermath

Level 90 Empyrean Weapons: Increased stats, lowered delay, etc

Good idea actually, however I like the setup as it is, since this IS the pinnacle of all weapon lines.

[Michaeluk]

So you want these easy to make weapons even more powerfull at a even lower level intresting.