Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

[Theytak]

[[ 1) recomends to every pup to use tactical processor: ]]
[[ 1) Absolutely-- and let me add, combine this with the Optic Fiber attachment ]]
[[ 2) offers nor proof or evidence to why or what it does ]]
[[ 2) By doing what I ask, the proof is in the pudding You'll experience it for yourself. ]]

We have no way of knowing how to prove this ourselves, and further "It's true because I say it's true, if you don't believe me, go do the testing for me and prove it yourself" is not a viable argument. Also, tactical processor was released in 2006, and countless amounts of testing has been done and the overall conclusion of 5 years worth of testing by dozens of different people disagrees with you. Provide the MATHEMATICAL PROOF of your findings, and your statement will be valid.

[[ 7) says SD is a dd atma, discounts slow as negligible, calls 15% TA minor. ]]
[[ 7) edit...never called TA 15%.... i stated that the triple attack was small and that the slow given by SD was more like 12% and not 15%, and yes it is negligible when you use a multi-weapon, and your pet has a +7 tp regain effect (if you liked using Burts, using this atma combined with VV, your automaton will most likely spam it's tp move, or if you have an inhibitor attached, you'll be able to do wonders setting up a mob for major pain). ]]

Let me show you just why sea daughter hurts your damage. Using basic math that anyone with a high school education should be capable of.

Let's just assume a TP set including cirque legs +2 and cirque necklace, that also has capped gear haste (multiple ways to do it, all that matters for this math is that your gear haste is capped). Now, it'll vary a tiny bit based on weapon delay, so I'll do both 61 delay (Taipan+2) and 51 delay (burts/vereth). Assume TP gear includes brutal earring, and warrior sub since we're talking damage output. Not gonna bother with apoc, because I'm just doing baseline math and I don't feel like accounting for Triple attack, note however that apoc would, in this scenario, only further the difference.

Pup90, base h2h delay 340, -20 from gear, +51:
- total delay 371
- TP/hit: 12.5~12.6/round, 6.2-6.3/fist (I don't have any +51 delay weapons on hand to check; if someone knows off the top of their head which it is, since the round tp comes out at 12.55 and tp truncates to the the tenth position, and I can't remember for the life of me what the tp/hit should be here. I'll do both to be safe)
- delay between attack rounds: 6.183 seconds BEFORE HASTE
- Apply 25% Haste: 278.25 delay; 4.6375 seconds between attack rounds
- Apply 10% Haste (with SD): 333.9 delay; 5.565 seconds between attack rounds

Pup90, base h2h delay 340, -20 from gear, +61:
- total delay: 381
- TP/hit: 13/round, 6.5/fist
- delay between attack rounds: 6.35 seconds BEFORE HASTE
- Apply 25% haste; 285.75 delay; 4.7625 seconds between attack rounds,
- Apply 10% haste (with SD): 342.9 delay; 5.715 seconds between attack rounds

Assuming 15% DA rate: TP gain over 5 minutes (300 seconds):
----- 25% haste -----
+51: 64 attack rounds; ~147 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~140 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 868 / 882 (6.2 / 6.3 per hit respectively)
+61: 62 attack rounds; ~142 punches
- Total TP gained: 923
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~135 successful attacks
----- 10% haste -----
+51: 53 attack rounds; ~122 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~116 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 719.2 / 730.8 (6.2 / 6.3 per hit respectively)
+61: 52 attack rounds; ~120 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~114 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 741

Atma of the Sea Daughter: TP gain over 5 minutes (300 seconds)
100 regain ticks at 5 tp/tick; total gain 500 TP

In terms of TP, you can effectively round down to the base hundred for this part, because it's related to WS frequency.

+51 with 25% haste: 8 ws in 5 min
+61 with 25% haste: 9 ws in 5 min
+51 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
+61 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
Note: This is what I meant in regards to Apoc, +25% haste would likely gain at least one additional WS each, while +10% would not (but honestly I'm completely guesstimating that bit).

So yes, Xioxan is correct that he has a greater WS frequency using Atma of the Sea Daughter. However, note that in both cases, the resulting number of successful attacks with sea daughter is lowered by ~25 for the +51, and ~20 for +61. If you assume a generic RR/SS/GH atma set up, and an average of ~80% crit rate, capped h2h skill/merits for a base 42 damage, and a+29 damage weapon (burts/taipan), 71 dmg. Now, I haven't done crit damage math post abyssea, but I do know that with destroyers' +18 at 75 mnk had a ~186 crit damage cap. It's a lot higher in abyssea. Averaging 200+ damage per crit is relatively easy and common. if you assume 200~250 damage per crit (can be higher/lower depending on skill/gear/atma), you lose about 4000~5000 damage just from your melee damage (2~3 stringing pummels accounting for acc variance, crit variance, and "lol, you suck" variance(yes, I consider this a credible variable; it stands for the likelihood of a ws doing shit damage for no explainable reason)).

Effectively, this loss in melee DoT negates any gain SD's regain would give you. These numbers will not be quite as grand for Sharpshot, since sharpshot's damage is primarily WS, but with valoredge, it should come out to roughly the same, if not even more of a loss, depending on your wind maneuver frequency (you need 2 wind maneuvers active at all times while meleeing to negate the loss of haste from SD). If your delay drops into the negative (ie: higher than base). Also keep in mind that the higher your base delay, the more effect slow will have; valoredge's 360 delay should keep it roughly around the same effect as your own h2h, but sharpshot's 400 delay will take a more noticeable hit.

And yes, I realize that you're also trying to use skill chaining as reason for this SD being good, but you also have to realize that these numbers don't account for two things: 1) how rare it is you actually WS at exactly 100% TP, and 2) how much TP gets wasted between master and puppet during the SC process. it's not difficult to lose 30~50 TP per skill chain, and that excess TP is what will lead to an overall loss in damage output.

tl;dr: Atma of the Sea Daughter sucks for damage output. No exceptions.

See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas.

If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right You use it, well so can I.

Ok, that's just insulting. I've been pup main since 2006, when aht urgan was released, and it has been both my favorite and most played job over the last 5 years. And yes, freedom of speech is a constitutional right. However, freedom of speech does not prove your statements, nor does it exclude you from the human birthrite, the freedom to be really stupid.

[xiozen]

...MATHEMATICAL PROOF of your findings, and your statement will be valid.

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...

Using basic math that anyone with a high school education should be capable of.

Let's just assume a TP set... all that matters for this math is that your gear haste is capped...

Not proof...opinion... assumptions... I'll continue, using your own words...

...it'll vary a tiny bit based on weapon delay... Assume TP gear includes... Not gonna bother with apoc, because I'm just doing baseline math and I don't feel like accounting for Triple attack, note however that apoc would, in this scenario, only further the difference. ...

More assumptions and hypotheticals; these are your words, not mine... I'll continue...

Pup90, base h2h delay 340, -20 from gear, +51: - total delay 371
- TP/hit: 12.5~12.6/round, 6.2-6.3/fist (I don't have any +51 delay weapons on hand to check...

Assuming 15% DA rate:

In terms of TP, you can effectively round down to the base hundred for this part, because it's related to WS frequency.

It's related to ws frequency...so many assumptions to "prove" your point... =/

+51 with 25% haste: 8 ws in 5 min
+61 with 25% haste: 9 ws in 5 min
+51 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
+61 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
Note: This is what I meant in regards to Apoc, +25% haste would likely gain at least one additional WS each, while +10% would not (but honestly I'm completely guesstimating that bit).

hmm... "guesstimating?"

So yes, Xioxan is correct that he has a greater WS frequency using Atma of the Sea Daughter. However, note that in both cases, the resulting number of successful attacks with sea daughter is lowered by ~25 for the +51, and ~20 for +61. If you assume a generic RR/SS/GH atma set up, and an average of ~80% crit rate, capped h2h skill/merits for a base 42 damage, and a+29 damage weapon (burts/taipan), 71 dmg. Now, I haven't done crit damage math post abyssea, but I do know that with destroyers' +18 at 75 mnk had a ~186 crit damage cap. It's a lot higher in abyssea. Averaging 200+ damage per crit is relatively easy and common. if you assume 200~250 damage per crit (can be higher/lower depending on skill/gear/atma), you lose about 4000~5000 damage just from your melee damage (2~3 stringing pummels accounting for acc variance, crit variance, and "lol, you suck" variance(yes, I consider this a credible variable; it stands for the likelihood of a ws doing shit damage for no explainable reason)).

Effectively, this loss in melee DoT negates any gain SD's regain would give you. These numbers will not be quite as grand for Sharpshot, since sharpshot's damage is primarily WS, but with valoredge, it should come out to roughly the same, if not even more of a loss, depending on your wind maneuver frequency (you need 2 wind maneuvers active at all times while meleeing to negate the loss of haste from SD). If your delay drops into the negative (ie: higher than base). Also keep in mind that the higher your base delay, the more effect slow will have; valoredge's 360 delay should keep it roughly around the same effect as your own h2h, but sharpshot's 400 delay will take a more noticeable hit.

There's so many assumptions in this, I don't even know where to begin... I get tired just reading it. /sigh

And yes, I realize that you're also trying to use skill chaining as reason for this SD being good, but you also have to realize that these numbers don't account for two things: 1) how rare it is you actually WS at exactly 100% TP, and 2) how much TP gets wasted between master and puppet during the SC process. it's not difficult to lose 30~50 TP per skill chain, and that excess TP is what will lead to an overall loss in damage output.

Again more assumptions; you state it's rare that I WS w/ my automaton; however keep in mind SD gives a decent regain and Darkness skill-chain is reciprocal between Master and Puppet; meaning, I can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my "Valoredge" puppet's string shredder just as readily as my automaton can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my stringing Pummel... Hmm, so the Master using a multi-hit weapon (a dubious one, I might add) Ursine Claws +2 with Double Attack +10, Brutal Earring (more double attack), Twilight Belt (more double attack), (if I wear the Cirque head piece during tp, that's more double attack), Aurore Doublet (more double attack)... For "ME" its far from Rare when I and my puppet can skill chain... Sea Daughter's Slow effect is negligible for me, as I previously pointed out. I cannot speak for other people and their play-style.

As for your final comment, it borders on being semi-offensive; all I'll say is--it's my opinion, that no one on these forums is stupid by any degree. /cheers

[SpankWustler]

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...

You do realize all things related to other atma which would be replace Sea Daughter were purposefully left out of Theytak's actual equations about gained weapon-skills and lost attack rounds, right? All assumptions are only made in regards to the conclusion, well after the actual math equations.

The conditions used for the equations are totally unrelated to anything other than "this person knows which trousers to wear in a party situation and how not to wear those trousers on his or her face". Also, Theytak is being very kind to Atma of the Sea Daughter by not adding the condition that a White Mage or the like is present to cast Haste.

Feel free to disagree with her conclusion, but the equation is what it is and those numbers are pretty much concrete.

[xiozen]

You do realize all things related to other atma which would be replace Sea Daughter were purposefully left out of Theytak's actual equations about gained weapon-skills and lost attack rounds, right? All assumptions are only made in regards to the conclusion, well after the actual math equations.

The conditions used for the equations are totally unrelated to anything other than "this person knows which trousers to wear in a party situation and how not to wear those trousers on his or her face". Also, Theytak is being very kind to Atma of the Sea Daughter by not adding the condition that a White Mage or the like is present to cast Haste.

Feel free to disagree with her conclusion, but the equation is what it is and those numbers are pretty much concrete.

Spoken like a true follower of the cause^^ /applaud

[SpankWustler]

Spoken like a true follower of the cause^^ /applaud

It's fine if you disagree with me, and I understand your attitude given the number of overt personal attacks in this thread, but I have this funny feeling that you didn't even bother reading my post.

So, I'll summarize. All of the assumptions to which you object come after the equation for Sea Daughter's effects. Trading 20~25 attacks for 3~4 weapon-skills over the course of five minutes is what it is. The only condition for these numbers is that you have a decent TP set.

[Theytak]

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...

I'll assume this was only directed at what it followed, and not the rest of my post. I agree that for that particular circumstance, I did not provide mathematical proof. The reason for this is simple. The math has already been done 50+ times and always comes out the same. The results of this math are what I stated in my reply. If you don't believe me... I'll use your retort: Go find the testing yourself because I can't be bothered to show it to you. (sounds a little... um... wishywashy, doesn't it.)

Not proof...opinion... assumptions... I'll continue, using your own words...

This "assumption" is an "assumption" of case. All it "assumes" is that the generic puppetmaster involved in my math is, in fact, wearing a standard TP set, as opposed to, say, a WS set, an evasion set, or some other type of gear set. This is an "assumption" in terminology only. The term "assume", as it is applied here, means "For this particular variable, in this particular equation, we will use the definition 'TP gear set'" and nothing more.

More assumptions and hypotheticals; these are your words, not mine... I'll continue...

Variations are a standard occurrence with math, especially FFXI related math, due to SE's love of randomly changing where numbers round off. My "assumption" of the TP set I defined as the variable previously is, again, serving only to further define the variable in question. It is used as opposed to say, a TP set that does not reach the 25% gear-haste cap. In regards to the triple attack comment, I won't deny that that was an assumption in the definition of an educated guess based on knowledge of game mechanics. If you want me to further strengthen my point, though, I'll crunch the numbers and show you exactly how much more incorrect you can be.

It's related to ws frequency...so many assumptions to "prove" your point... =/

"Assuming" 15% double attack coming from /war's +10% double attack, and Brutal Earring's +5% double attack. Assuming 15% double attack as opposed to assuming 5/10/20/32/9/13/whatever % double attack. 15% is a standard amount of double attack for a pup TP build. Thus, I made the "assumption" in line with my previous "assumption" of the gear the unnamed pup was wearing.

For the assumption that it's safe to round down to base hundreds, are you telling me that, as a pup/war in a melee scenario, you're going to be using that TP for something other than weapon skills? I mean, it's not like weapon skills require a minimum of 100 TP... oh wait, they do. My assumptions of scenario do nothing to discredit the math that you failed to respond to.

hmm... "guesstimating?"

Again, this is related to my choice to not use atma of the apocalypse, and thus give atma of the sea daughter the benefit of the doubt. This was obviously an assumption and in no way related to the proof provided by the math that you completely disregarded.

There's so many assumptions in this, I don't even know where to begin... I get tired just reading it. /sigh

Those "assumptions" were generic averages based on my experiences in abyssea on pup and mnk using h2h weapons. Also, the atma assumption was based on the original topic of this thread, and was chosen as a set of meleeing atma. The final bit, the "lol, you suck" variable, is partially just a joke, but also partially refers to the low, but still possible, likelihood of various issues that arise from the fact thinks like accuracy and critical hit rate won't be capped at 100% efficiency. This means that you WILL ALWAYS MISS AT LEAST 5% of the time over the course of any significant amount of time. There is absolutely no exception to this rule, because your accuracy can never exceed 95%. Of course, that length of time is related to the final issue covered by this variable, the random number generators used in damage calculation and hit success. It is entirely possible to land 10,000 out of 10,000 consecutive hits even with a guaranteed 5% miss rate, though it is also unlikely. Similarly, it is entirely possible that you will miss all 10,000 consecutive hits even with a guaranteed 95% success rate, due to the random number generators just not liking you (though, the chance of this is so tiny that no one's ever had it happen, it is still a variable that needs to be accounted for somewhere).

Again more assumptions; you state it's rare that I WS w/ my automaton; however keep in mind SD gives a decent regain and Darkness skill-chain is reciprocal between Master and Puppet; meaning, I can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my "Valoredge" puppet's string shredder just as readily as my automaton can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my stringing Pummel... Hmm, so the Master using a multi-hit weapon (a dubious one, I might add) Ursine Claws +2 with Double Attack +10, Brutal Earring (more double attack), Twilight Belt (more double attack), (if I wear the Cirque head piece during tp, that's more double attack), Aurore Doublet (more double attack)... For "ME" its far from Rare when I and my puppet can skill chain... Sea Daughter's Slow effect is negligible for me, as I previously pointed out. I cannot speak for other people and their play-style.

You misread/misunderstood my statement. I said that is rare that you and your automaton both execute your WSs in perfect timing with perfect synchronization and that both of your TP%s are at exactly 100% at the time of your WS, meaning that there is absolutely no wasted TP whatsoever; it is rare that this happens once. It's completely impossible for it to happen multiple times in succession, due primarily to regain/tp hit not stacking to whole number amounts, and also due to random monster hits/aoe attacks hitting you and giving you extra TP.

As for your final comment, it borders on being semi-offensive; all I'll say is--it's my opinion, that no one on these forums is stupid by any degree. /cheers

See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas.

you imply that you are a PUP main, but other individuals who state they are pup mains (like myself, dfoley, and others), are not. That's a blatant slap in the face. You also imply that the math that has been linked to you for you to read and understand (for your own benefit) is nothing more than "random spreadsheets with fudged formulas". The numbers and data used for these "random" spreadsheets are, in fact, acquired through hours and hours of mind numbing testing in game, using pup in various scenarios and with various pieces of gear. The formulas are in no way, shape, or form, fudged. They are the same formulas discovered through said hours of mind numbing testing in game. The formulas accuracy is guaranteed, so long as the person using the formula is using accurate data, and has enough understanding of basic math to know Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (read: like, a 12 year old).

If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^

You imply here that those of us who disagree with you are lacking in experience. That's a blatant insult towards our experience in game and as puppetmasters. You even add a condescending smiley face. And you're not sharing your experiences. You're stating your opinions based on your own biased ideas how you wish "stuff" worked, in spite of the fact that said "stuff" -

NOTE: Stuff is used here as a catch all term. Since you're incapable of understanding context and simple english, it's meaning in this context includes, but is not limited too; the function of tactical processor, the function and benefits provided by the four types of animators, the function of haste/slow and how they relate to over all damage output, and the usage of the word "assume" as it relates to mathematics.

- does not work in the way you have convinced yourself it does.

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right You use it, well so can I.

Here, you openly state that you do not understand game mechanics. You also, as mentioned, use the "Freedom of Speech" guaranteed to you by the US constitution as a viable defense. However, your "freedom of speech" does not apply to these forums. You are NOT free to say anything you want with no limits in the way the constitution allows, because this forum is NOT the united states of america. This forum is a gaming forum that has its own set of rules, and is based out of a completely different country (Japan). Assuming (lol) that your constitutional right to free speech applies everywhere on the internet is both ignorant (read: ignorant does not mean stupid. Ignorance is a state of unknowing, or lack of knowledge. nothing more.) and silly. For further support of this, allow me to provide you with the definition of your (our) Freedom of Speech:

"The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law."

This applies only within the borders of the united states, or areas where the US is sovereign, such as military bases. The united states holds no sovereignty over this forum, thus you have no freedom of speech.

Now, if you were more well informed, you would have at least attempted to use the Freedom of Speech right that does have some say here, provided by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (read: not constitutional). This right is an international right, and as far as I know, Japan does follow it.

Now, just because I have nothing more constructive to do, I'm going to use YOUR tp set and I'm going to go and REDO ALL OF MY ALREADY CORRECT math. I will keep my next post in a pure mathematical form, and it will be sure to define EVERY LAST VARIABLE USING SIMPLE WORDS SO THAT THE MEANING IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR AND CANNOT BE MISCONSTRUED FOR THE SAKE OF SOME STUPID ARGUMENT OF SEMANTICS.

In regards to this: Xioxen, please provide me with all of the following variables that you do not want me to assume as something else:

- your Stringing Pummel WS set
- your base str, dex, and vit as PUP90/WAR45
- your base str, dex, and vit as PUP90/NIN45
- The attachments you use when using Valoredge
- The maneuvers you cycle when using Valoredge, as well as how frequently you cycle them (down to the second, if possible. Please do not make any guesstimation or assumption, I need the exact average number of seconds between each maneuver)
- Your valoredge's current Automaton Melee Skill, if it is not capped.
- The attachments you use when using sharpshot
- The maneuvers you cycle when using sharpshot, as well as how frequently you cycle them
- Your sharpshot's current Automaton Ranged Skill, if it is not capped.
- Your current number of Hand-to-Hand skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Critical hit rate merits, if any
- Your current number of Automaton Melee Skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Automaton Ranged Skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Optimization merits, if any
- Your current number of Fine-Tuning merits, if any
- Your current number of STR merits, if any
- Your current number of DEX merits, if any
- Your current number of VIT merits, if any
- The typical party set up you are in when you are meleeing on pup as pup/war
- The typical party set up you are in when you are meleeing on pup as pup/nin
- The gear sets, skill levels, and merits of each party member, related to melee DD, Enhancing magic, or Enfeebling magic. I am safe to assume you can infer which data I need depending on the player's job choice, correct? I don't need any melee jobs' enhancing magic information.
- The number of Abyssite of Furtherance possessed by you and any other party member who will be meleeing.
- The Jobs, WS, Job abilities, and offensive spells (damaging, enfeebling, or enhancing) used by any party member who is meleeing
- The Area in which this scenario occurs
- The type of monsters you are fighting
- The level of the monsters you are fighting
- The frequency at which you, and any other meleeing party members, are not engaged in combat, as well as the exact amount of time, over the course of 30 minutes
- The exact amount of TP at which you execute your skill chain with your puppet; both how much TP you have at the time you WS, and how much TP your puppet has when it ws's. Please either provide me with an exact list of numbers, or an average. I will not accept 100 tp for either player or puppet, because there is a 100% certainty that you will not average 100 TP, unless both you and your puppet successfully WS at exactly 100 TP every time you are able too over the course of 30 minutes, based on the delay of your chosen weapons, your attack frequency, and the amount of store TP you possess.

All of these are normally assumed to be something stated ahead of time in a given mathematical proof, and can thus be negated and ignored. However, since you don't want me to "assume" anything, I will need you to provide me with all of this data, so that I can be 100% certain that none of it matters.