Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

[Zhronne]

With all the mess that happened I forgot to post my (unwanted?) opinion -.-
Trying to get back in topic now, some time ago I calculated 3 different possible combinations for the third atma.
Of course RR and Apoc aren't in discussion.
For the third I calculated the overall damage with:

1) Voracious Violet
2) Gnarled Horn
3) Sanguine Scythe


I didn't factor my automaton at all on these calculations, which was probably a big mistake D:
I also split those calculations in two, first considering Stringing Pummel as the main WS, then with Victory Smite.
Of course these results are somehow bound to my personal equipment at the time and other close combinations. Anyway I found out the following:

• With a close to unbuffed character (no haste, no march, no food, no berserk up etc) VV produces slightly better results than the other two. It also has to be noted that VV produces other advantages that are hard to factor inside formulae. For example the utility of the 2tp/tic regain during times when you are not fighting. It may sound stupid, but you won't be constantly engaged 100% of the times. It's also an added utility if you want to hold back and proc stuff for some reason.
• GH offers a nice + crit rate % which is always useful since we won't be capped. The AGI won't do much (probably capped on AGI eva with just cruor buffs, and no primary/secondary mod on any WS). The +counter is nice but without native counter (like MNK) it doesn't become a particularly interesting edge. It also has to be noted that if you're using Sharpshoot, ranged attacks won't benefit from the +crit, but they would benefit from AGI (r.acc, and also it's also supposed to be the primary modifier for Armor Shatterer). Similarly, the +counter could be useful for Valoredge if you use Galvanizer for some reason. From all of this it sounds that GH is a nice option, but slightly behind the other two, wether you're using Pummel or Smite, wether your character is fully buffed or fully unbuffed.
• SS offers the utility of more HP for both you and your pet (which doesn't benefit from cruor buffs). Doesn't directly affect your damage but personally it's a stat I really like, especially for my pet (altough since when they added Deus Ex Machina, Automaton survivability became much less of an issue than it was before). Damage-wise it seems to affect your overall dps more than VV when you start getting some buffs (Zerk, food, etc), it's behind VV when you're completely unbuffed, but with a small difference.

Of course as a choice for third atma I didn't consider "Atma of Alpha & Omega" which, in theory, is better than any of the above under any possible circumstance. But I don't really like the -HP so I usually skip considering A&O.


tl;dr
Buffed: SS > VV > GH
Unbuffed: VV > SS > GH
Same thing for either Pummel and Smite.

SS probably wins when you're buffed (with an increasing margin the more you're buffed) because, correct me if I'm wrong, it's not a static damage increase but a % one. Hence the more your basic damage is (increased by buffs) the higher return the % gives.
Also as you get close to the attack cap the +25 you get from VV loses its relevance.

[xbobx]

Thank you, good job.

[Zhronne]

I'm glad you apreciated the wall o' text! xD
I claim no absolute accuracy btw, just wanted to share my little research that I did for myself some time ago

[Dfoley]

Just to clarify a few things.

1) AGI has nothing to do with armor shatter.
2) SS increases crit dmg by a %, correct, however no buffs affect cirt dmg and it is a linear stat. A super simple example is this: Hit for 150, crit for 300 (+0% crit dmg, 150 dmg added from crit), crit for 450 (+100% crit dmg, 300 dmg added for cirt). Im sure someone will correct me on the math there but it really is linear.

3) 5th post in the thread (from me) also had this same result from kinematics spread sheet. These were total dps numbers based on my gear/food/weapon/sub job etc

ss/rr/apoc : 273
vv/rr/apoc : 269
gh/rr/apoc : 266

Although it was interesting to see that SP ranks higher than VS for PUPS, which im willing to bet isnt true, but ill have to parse it to be sure.

[Zhronne]

I've had some very strange results with the SS vs VS thing, both on Motenten's spreadsheet and in-game parses.
Numbers seems so odd I have issues in understanding which WS is potentially better, altough of course VS becomes no "option" when you have Verethragna (for the Aftermath).

I still think that while VS and SP are close to each other, VS has more potential. For example the higher fTP base mod is gonna make a difference on certain mobs outside of abyssea.
While inside, VS has a bigger potential gain from Triple Attack. With SP you reach the max number of hits with a single TA proc.
With VS you can get up to two, which is the maximum possible amount per WS.
Unless I missed something?
So in theory you shouldn't be able to see 2x TA procs during Stringing Pummel, while that's possible with Victory Smite, leading to higher spikes.

Just my personal feelings at the moment btw. I'd love to read more impressions from other people!

[Zhronne]

2) SS increases crit dmg by a %, correct, however no buffs affect cirt dmg and it is a linear stat. A super simple example is this: Hit for 150, crit for 300 (+0% crit dmg, 150 dmg added from crit), crit for 450 (+100% crit dmg, 300 dmg added for cirt). Im sure someone will correct me on the math there but it really is linear.

Yes, I asked for corrections and I think I specified the word "probably" a few times because I wasn't sure. I'm well aware of my huge math ignorance, despite my age.
Would you mind clarifying this a bit more for me? I'll try to reformulate what I wanted to write before (which is possibly wrong!)
I know it's not like this, but let's pretend for a second that VV adds a static amount of damage, and let's pretend this amount is +50. It's gonna stay +50 wether your base fists do 150 damage or 200 or 400, it's always gonna be +50 (I know factoring VV is more complicated because of DA etc, but I'm just trying to make up an example)
SS instead doesn't add a fixed amount, even if it's still linear, it "scales" with your base damage.
If your base fist does 150 damage your crits with SS will do 345, which is 45 more damage. Hence at this stage SS adds +45.
But if you have several buffs on yourself, let's say your basic fists do 200 damage. Your crits will SS will now do 460. Hence at this stage SS gives you +60 damage and not +45 like before.


tl;dr
I noticed how on my totally unbuffed character, VV was producing slightly higher results than SS. I also noticed how things were going the other way around as I was adding some buffs, and the more I added the more this difference increased.
I wondered why, and the explanation I hypothized was that SS is a % increase, not a fixed, and hence this % scales with your base damage, which is increased by buffs. So one could say that SS is affected by buffs, whereas the bonuses provided by VV aren't or are less noticeably than SS's.
Is this hypothesys completely wrong?

3) 5th post in the thread (from me) also had this same result from kinematics spread sheet. These were total dps numbers based on my gear/food/weapon/sub job etc

Yep I saw that and forgot to agree while I got carried away by the xiaozen thing.
I just wanted to add my personal calculation and talking about how VV can in some circumstances be slightly better than SS (the difference was very small, truth be said).
And also wanted to add how damage-wise RR/Apoc/A&O is even better, but I don't like it because of the -HP%.

I personally just use SS/RR/Apoc all the times and that ended my indecision

[Theytak]

^ That book needs a title ^

You should see what happens when I actually get angry at someone, and I'm not held back by a 10,000 character cap. By the way, for those who didn't know, this forum has a 10,000 character limit on posts.

This is why scientists don't debate with creationists in the first place.

No, the scientists that don't debate with creationists are the ones with no patience, or the ones who got bored of it. Most scientists I know enjoy debating with creationists for the same reason I enjoy playing with trolls. Attempting to win an unwinnable argument is good mental exercise. You know going in that there's no way your opponent will ever agree or submit to your point, but you try and convince them anyway because it's easy theory-defense practice, and after you get good at it, it's a lot of fun to completely shut them down and force them to admit defeat.

Although it was interesting to see that SP ranks higher than VS for PUPS, which im willing to bet isnt true, but ill have to parse it to be sure.

I can believe it. Yea, VS has better fTP/mods, but SP does have the advantage of two extra hits that can crit. It would probably depend heavily on how good your SP build is, since SP is a bit tougher to build for than VS due to it's secondary VIT mod, and pup's lack of VIT gear, but I could see SP and VS keeping up with each other under optimal settings. Now, if SP was coming from level 90 Kenkonken - provided the apparent damage boost level 90 mythics give their WS - I could honestly see SP beating out VS.

This is, of course, totally ignoring Aftermath, and is complete guestimation. It's not likely that SP could beat VS under normal circumstances, but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.

[Zhronne]

I can believe it. Yea, VS has better fTP/mods, but SP does have the advantage of two extra hits that can crit. It would probably depend heavily on how good your SP build is, since SP is a bit tougher to build for than VS due to it's secondary VIT mod, and pup's lack of VIT gear, but I could see SP and VS keeping up with each other under optimal settings. Now, if SP was coming from level 90 Kenkonken - provided the apparent damage boost level 90 mythics give their WS - I could honestly see SP beating out VS.

This is, of course, totally ignoring Aftermath, and is complete guestimation. It's not likely that SP could beat VS under normal circumstances, but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.

I'd love a separate thread just on SP vs VS comparison!
Anyway, my experience is that judging from the spreadsheet Stringing Pummel should always pull out numbers higher than Victory Smite, yet in-game (at least by eyeballing, never thoroughfully parsed) VS damage seems always more consistant than SP's, altough occasionally SP does more.

In the end I tend to use up VS for the Aftermath, but still this thing always puzzled me. More feedback from other users?


As for Kenkonken, I have no doubt that with a 15% damage boost to the WS (level 90 mythic) Stringing Pummel would outdamage Victory Smite, even before taking into consideration the Aftermath.

[Theytak]

I'd love a separate thread just on SP vs VS comparison!
Anyway, my experience is that judging from the spreadsheet Stringing Pummel should always pull out numbers higher than Victory Smite, yet in-game (at least by eyeballing, never thoroughfully parsed) VS damage seems always more consistant than SP's, altough occasionally SP does more.

In the end I tend to use up VS for the Aftermath, but still this thing always puzzled me. More feedback from other users?


As for Kenkonken, I have no doubt that with a 15% damage boost to the WS (level 90 mythic) Stringing Pummel would outdamage Victory Smite, even before taking into consideration the Aftermath.

VS will always be more consistent due to its lower hit-count, while SP will always have the higher maximum. This is due to the fact that varied fTP only applies to the first hit, and each hit after that is 1.0 fTP regardless of TP. Essentially, Victory Smite is 2.25 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP, while Stringing Pummel is 0.75 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP; if you add the fTP values and compare them, VS is 5.25 while SP is 5.75. Any double/triple attack proc will add +1.0 per added hit, so even at 8 hits (2 triple attack procs on VS, 2 double attack or 1 triple attack proc on SP), there's still a net .5 fTP difference. VS's higher STR mod and lower number of hits to achieve the base max (ignoring DA/TA) damage is why it will be more consistent, but because SP has two additional guaranteed hits, it has more chances to proc critical hits and thus should average slighty higher damage over all. Once you throw in the kenkonken bonus it just gets silly.

[Zhronne]

Didn't think about the ftp mod to the first hit only, definitely makes sense now I still have SP macroed but since I have Vere I'm still gonna use Vsmite I think.