Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

[SpankWustler]

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...

You do realize all things related to other atma which would be replace Sea Daughter were purposefully left out of Theytak's actual equations about gained weapon-skills and lost attack rounds, right? All assumptions are only made in regards to the conclusion, well after the actual math equations.

The conditions used for the equations are totally unrelated to anything other than "this person knows which trousers to wear in a party situation and how not to wear those trousers on his or her face". Also, Theytak is being very kind to Atma of the Sea Daughter by not adding the condition that a White Mage or the like is present to cast Haste.

Feel free to disagree with her conclusion, but the equation is what it is and those numbers are pretty much concrete.

[Theytak]

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...

I'll assume this was only directed at what it followed, and not the rest of my post. I agree that for that particular circumstance, I did not provide mathematical proof. The reason for this is simple. The math has already been done 50+ times and always comes out the same. The results of this math are what I stated in my reply. If you don't believe me... I'll use your retort: Go find the testing yourself because I can't be bothered to show it to you. (sounds a little... um... wishywashy, doesn't it.)

Not proof...opinion... assumptions... I'll continue, using your own words...

This "assumption" is an "assumption" of case. All it "assumes" is that the generic puppetmaster involved in my math is, in fact, wearing a standard TP set, as opposed to, say, a WS set, an evasion set, or some other type of gear set. This is an "assumption" in terminology only. The term "assume", as it is applied here, means "For this particular variable, in this particular equation, we will use the definition 'TP gear set'" and nothing more.

More assumptions and hypotheticals; these are your words, not mine... I'll continue...

Variations are a standard occurrence with math, especially FFXI related math, due to SE's love of randomly changing where numbers round off. My "assumption" of the TP set I defined as the variable previously is, again, serving only to further define the variable in question. It is used as opposed to say, a TP set that does not reach the 25% gear-haste cap. In regards to the triple attack comment, I won't deny that that was an assumption in the definition of an educated guess based on knowledge of game mechanics. If you want me to further strengthen my point, though, I'll crunch the numbers and show you exactly how much more incorrect you can be.

It's related to ws frequency...so many assumptions to "prove" your point... =/

"Assuming" 15% double attack coming from /war's +10% double attack, and Brutal Earring's +5% double attack. Assuming 15% double attack as opposed to assuming 5/10/20/32/9/13/whatever % double attack. 15% is a standard amount of double attack for a pup TP build. Thus, I made the "assumption" in line with my previous "assumption" of the gear the unnamed pup was wearing.

For the assumption that it's safe to round down to base hundreds, are you telling me that, as a pup/war in a melee scenario, you're going to be using that TP for something other than weapon skills? I mean, it's not like weapon skills require a minimum of 100 TP... oh wait, they do. My assumptions of scenario do nothing to discredit the math that you failed to respond to.

hmm... "guesstimating?"

Again, this is related to my choice to not use atma of the apocalypse, and thus give atma of the sea daughter the benefit of the doubt. This was obviously an assumption and in no way related to the proof provided by the math that you completely disregarded.

There's so many assumptions in this, I don't even know where to begin... I get tired just reading it. /sigh

Those "assumptions" were generic averages based on my experiences in abyssea on pup and mnk using h2h weapons. Also, the atma assumption was based on the original topic of this thread, and was chosen as a set of meleeing atma. The final bit, the "lol, you suck" variable, is partially just a joke, but also partially refers to the low, but still possible, likelihood of various issues that arise from the fact thinks like accuracy and critical hit rate won't be capped at 100% efficiency. This means that you WILL ALWAYS MISS AT LEAST 5% of the time over the course of any significant amount of time. There is absolutely no exception to this rule, because your accuracy can never exceed 95%. Of course, that length of time is related to the final issue covered by this variable, the random number generators used in damage calculation and hit success. It is entirely possible to land 10,000 out of 10,000 consecutive hits even with a guaranteed 5% miss rate, though it is also unlikely. Similarly, it is entirely possible that you will miss all 10,000 consecutive hits even with a guaranteed 95% success rate, due to the random number generators just not liking you (though, the chance of this is so tiny that no one's ever had it happen, it is still a variable that needs to be accounted for somewhere).

Again more assumptions; you state it's rare that I WS w/ my automaton; however keep in mind SD gives a decent regain and Darkness skill-chain is reciprocal between Master and Puppet; meaning, I can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my "Valoredge" puppet's string shredder just as readily as my automaton can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my stringing Pummel... Hmm, so the Master using a multi-hit weapon (a dubious one, I might add) Ursine Claws +2 with Double Attack +10, Brutal Earring (more double attack), Twilight Belt (more double attack), (if I wear the Cirque head piece during tp, that's more double attack), Aurore Doublet (more double attack)... For "ME" its far from Rare when I and my puppet can skill chain... Sea Daughter's Slow effect is negligible for me, as I previously pointed out. I cannot speak for other people and their play-style.

You misread/misunderstood my statement. I said that is rare that you and your automaton both execute your WSs in perfect timing with perfect synchronization and that both of your TP%s are at exactly 100% at the time of your WS, meaning that there is absolutely no wasted TP whatsoever; it is rare that this happens once. It's completely impossible for it to happen multiple times in succession, due primarily to regain/tp hit not stacking to whole number amounts, and also due to random monster hits/aoe attacks hitting you and giving you extra TP.

As for your final comment, it borders on being semi-offensive; all I'll say is--it's my opinion, that no one on these forums is stupid by any degree. /cheers

See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas.

you imply that you are a PUP main, but other individuals who state they are pup mains (like myself, dfoley, and others), are not. That's a blatant slap in the face. You also imply that the math that has been linked to you for you to read and understand (for your own benefit) is nothing more than "random spreadsheets with fudged formulas". The numbers and data used for these "random" spreadsheets are, in fact, acquired through hours and hours of mind numbing testing in game, using pup in various scenarios and with various pieces of gear. The formulas are in no way, shape, or form, fudged. They are the same formulas discovered through said hours of mind numbing testing in game. The formulas accuracy is guaranteed, so long as the person using the formula is using accurate data, and has enough understanding of basic math to know Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (read: like, a 12 year old).

If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^

You imply here that those of us who disagree with you are lacking in experience. That's a blatant insult towards our experience in game and as puppetmasters. You even add a condescending smiley face. And you're not sharing your experiences. You're stating your opinions based on your own biased ideas how you wish "stuff" worked, in spite of the fact that said "stuff" -

NOTE: Stuff is used here as a catch all term. Since you're incapable of understanding context and simple english, it's meaning in this context includes, but is not limited too; the function of tactical processor, the function and benefits provided by the four types of animators, the function of haste/slow and how they relate to over all damage output, and the usage of the word "assume" as it relates to mathematics.

- does not work in the way you have convinced yourself it does.

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right You use it, well so can I.

Here, you openly state that you do not understand game mechanics. You also, as mentioned, use the "Freedom of Speech" guaranteed to you by the US constitution as a viable defense. However, your "freedom of speech" does not apply to these forums. You are NOT free to say anything you want with no limits in the way the constitution allows, because this forum is NOT the united states of america. This forum is a gaming forum that has its own set of rules, and is based out of a completely different country (Japan). Assuming (lol) that your constitutional right to free speech applies everywhere on the internet is both ignorant (read: ignorant does not mean stupid. Ignorance is a state of unknowing, or lack of knowledge. nothing more.) and silly. For further support of this, allow me to provide you with the definition of your (our) Freedom of Speech:

"The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law."

This applies only within the borders of the united states, or areas where the US is sovereign, such as military bases. The united states holds no sovereignty over this forum, thus you have no freedom of speech.

Now, if you were more well informed, you would have at least attempted to use the Freedom of Speech right that does have some say here, provided by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (read: not constitutional). This right is an international right, and as far as I know, Japan does follow it.

Now, just because I have nothing more constructive to do, I'm going to use YOUR tp set and I'm going to go and REDO ALL OF MY ALREADY CORRECT math. I will keep my next post in a pure mathematical form, and it will be sure to define EVERY LAST VARIABLE USING SIMPLE WORDS SO THAT THE MEANING IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR AND CANNOT BE MISCONSTRUED FOR THE SAKE OF SOME STUPID ARGUMENT OF SEMANTICS.

In regards to this: Xioxen, please provide me with all of the following variables that you do not want me to assume as something else:

- your Stringing Pummel WS set
- your base str, dex, and vit as PUP90/WAR45
- your base str, dex, and vit as PUP90/NIN45
- The attachments you use when using Valoredge
- The maneuvers you cycle when using Valoredge, as well as how frequently you cycle them (down to the second, if possible. Please do not make any guesstimation or assumption, I need the exact average number of seconds between each maneuver)
- Your valoredge's current Automaton Melee Skill, if it is not capped.
- The attachments you use when using sharpshot
- The maneuvers you cycle when using sharpshot, as well as how frequently you cycle them
- Your sharpshot's current Automaton Ranged Skill, if it is not capped.
- Your current number of Hand-to-Hand skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Critical hit rate merits, if any
- Your current number of Automaton Melee Skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Automaton Ranged Skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Optimization merits, if any
- Your current number of Fine-Tuning merits, if any
- Your current number of STR merits, if any
- Your current number of DEX merits, if any
- Your current number of VIT merits, if any
- The typical party set up you are in when you are meleeing on pup as pup/war
- The typical party set up you are in when you are meleeing on pup as pup/nin
- The gear sets, skill levels, and merits of each party member, related to melee DD, Enhancing magic, or Enfeebling magic. I am safe to assume you can infer which data I need depending on the player's job choice, correct? I don't need any melee jobs' enhancing magic information.
- The number of Abyssite of Furtherance possessed by you and any other party member who will be meleeing.
- The Jobs, WS, Job abilities, and offensive spells (damaging, enfeebling, or enhancing) used by any party member who is meleeing
- The Area in which this scenario occurs
- The type of monsters you are fighting
- The level of the monsters you are fighting
- The frequency at which you, and any other meleeing party members, are not engaged in combat, as well as the exact amount of time, over the course of 30 minutes
- The exact amount of TP at which you execute your skill chain with your puppet; both how much TP you have at the time you WS, and how much TP your puppet has when it ws's. Please either provide me with an exact list of numbers, or an average. I will not accept 100 tp for either player or puppet, because there is a 100% certainty that you will not average 100 TP, unless both you and your puppet successfully WS at exactly 100 TP every time you are able too over the course of 30 minutes, based on the delay of your chosen weapons, your attack frequency, and the amount of store TP you possess.

All of these are normally assumed to be something stated ahead of time in a given mathematical proof, and can thus be negated and ignored. However, since you don't want me to "assume" anything, I will need you to provide me with all of this data, so that I can be 100% certain that none of it matters.

[TimeMage]

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

[Jar]

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

i have a full EVA build i macro in like PDT for TP moves that are physical <.< because it works from what i've seen but i have a mix set(haste/eva) i use for normal eva tanking <.<

[xiozen]

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

I wasn't gonna respond...but i have no choice... dubious choice of weapon DA H2H? Do you own a pair? Look at the gear we have, how much of it gives Double Attack? Actually, let me back up, I assumed a H2H job would love to Double Attack or even Triple Attack or better yet, Quadruple Attack... I do! A LOT!... initially I created and used the OccAttck 2-4...(suprised...? That weapon WAS freakin' the bomb for continues Stringing Pummels... (stacked on subtle blow to minimize tp gain on the mob worked fairly well)... now, as player level increased, the +dmg vers Double Attck became more of an enticement--so I elected to re-do the trials and now I own a weapon that I absolutely love. I don't know about you but I have a life outside of Final Fantasy and until I get the ultimate weapon for PUP I desire, Kenkonken, I'll settle for these--multi-hit, excellent dmg (+30 and soon to be +33 with update), stacks with Double attack from gear... combined with evasion set, combined with TP regain on both master and automaton... (I macro in Cirque +2 for weapon skill)... so yea... I enjoy the job a lot. So if it's dubious to you, then we have different play styles... pray tell...what is your play style on pup?

[Karbuncle]

Is someone still seriously recommending Tactical Processor after SE already told us what it does? Its complete crap. The Overload risk is not worth it checking to Silena you once more per minute. Its simply not worth wasting a spot on.

Oh and Xio, I hear what you're saying, But you're still very wrong. 5tp/tic Regain is not worth a 12% Slow on its own, let alone considering the Alternative is 15% Triple Attack.

No one here is suggestion you change your playstyle, But the advice you are giving is bad. No PUP serious about DD'ing should put on a Atma with 12%Slow. That significantly hurts you and your pet.

----

A Bit more on Topic, as for Atma combos for PUP, I generally use RR/GH/Apoc, or sometimes VV/RR/Apoc. RR/SS/Apoc for the lulz occasionally. But i think VV/RR/Apoc is my favorite for DD. RR/GH/Apoc being very close second.

[xiozen]

Is someone still seriously recommending Tactical Processor after SE already told us what it does? Its complete crap. The Overload risk is not worth it checking to Silena you once more per minute. Its simply not worth wasting a spot on.

Oh and Xio, I hear what you're saying, But you're still very wrong. 5tp/tic Regain is not worth a 12% Slow on its own, let alone considering the Alternative is 15% Triple Attack.

No one here is suggestion you change your playstyle, But the advice you are giving is bad. No PUP serious about DD'ing should put on a Atma with 12%Slow. That significantly hurts you and your pet.

----

A Bit more on Topic, as for Atma combos for PUP, I generally use RR/GH/Apoc, or sometimes VV/RR/Apoc. RR/SS/Apoc for the lulz occasionally. But i think VV/RR/Apoc is my favorite for DD. RR/GH/Apoc being very close second.

I've read a lot of your posts Karb, I respect your opinion^^

Question regarding your usage of RR/GH/Apoc, what kind of gear do you use for this set-up? and what Automaton do you generally rely on when you do this? soulsoother? or another set-up?

[Karbuncle]

Question regarding your usage of RR/GH/Apoc, what kind of gear do you use for this set-up?

My PUP gear is terribly incomplete, actually. But as it stands i use...

Taipain+2(Fire) - Animator -
+1 Head - Tierc(orEmp) Brutal - Aesir
Goliard - Relic/Emp+1 - Rajas - Epona's
Pantin - Twilight - +2 legs - Aurore

What i need is

+2 Head/Body/Hands.
Usukane or Enkidu Feet

I don't play as much often, But thats my current TP set. Far from perfect. My WS set is

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230000

Things not changed same as above. This one, again far from perfect. I don't play PUP often...

and what Automaton do you generally rely on when you do this? soulsoother? or another set-up?

I usually do things in groups, So i tend to use the Valoredge Frame or Ranger Frame. but generally ValorEdge. I don't have to worry too much about cures in this situation (Since i generally have a WHM)

[xiozen]

My PUP gear is terribly incomplete, actually. But as it stands i use...

Taipain+2(Fire) - Animator -
+1 Head - Tierc(orEmp) Brutal - Aesir
Goliard - Relic/Emp+1 - Rajas - Epona's
Pantin - Twilight - +2 legs - Aurore

What i need is

+2 Head/Body/Hands.
Usukane or Enkidu Feet

I don't play as much often, But thats my current TP set. Far from perfect. My WS set is

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230000

Things not changed same as above. This one, again far from perfect. I don't play PUP often...



I usually do things in groups, So i tend to use the Valoredge Frame or Ranger Frame. but generally ValorEdge. I don't have to worry too much about cures in this situation (Since i generally have a WHM)

Thanks--for the response.

It's my main, so I thought I'd share as well:

My Evasion set is : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230001 (this works wonders for me /nin or /dnc)

And my Weapon skill set is: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230003 (impressive numbers come from this for me)

I still need to get the +2 head, 4 items shy...but the Anwig w/ Weapon Skill Accuracy +15 works well as a macro item. I play pup as much as I can... can't wait to continue my work towards the Kenkonken. /cheers!

[Vivik]

And my Weapon skill set is: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230003 (impressive numbers come from this for me)

According to your equip history you don't have most of that +2 gear.