Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

**Byrth** · 09-09-2011 10:03 PM

I don't know if it has been linked yet, but the Slow effect of Sea Daughter is certainly 15%.

**Vivik** · 09-09-2011 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by xiozen

The Slow effect is negligible; considering the bonuses involved. I suggest to anyone that "doesn't" have it; give it a spin and see if it works for you.

I bet you're one of those people that would TP in full heca too, eh?

Saying any kind of slow effect is negligible shows how little you know about game mechanics. How about this, instead of saying "try it you'll like it" or "see for yourself", why don't you collect some data to back up your claims of it being "better" with some solid numbers?

Claiming "this is how I like to play" is just a cop out to the above quoted text.

**xiozen** · 09-09-2011 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Is someone still seriously recommending Tactical Processor after SE already told us what it does? Its complete crap. The Overload risk is not worth it checking to Silena you once more per minute. Its simply not worth wasting a spot on.

Oh and Xio, I hear what you're saying, But you're still very wrong. 5tp/tic Regain is not worth a 12% Slow on its own, let alone considering the Alternative is 15% Triple Attack.

No one here is suggestion you change your playstyle, But the advice you are giving is bad. No PUP serious about DD'ing should put on a Atma with 12%Slow. That significantly hurts you and your pet.

----

A Bit more on Topic, as for Atma combos for PUP, I generally use RR/GH/Apoc, or sometimes VV/RR/Apoc. RR/SS/Apoc for the lulz occasionally. But i think VV/RR/Apoc is my favorite for DD. RR/GH/Apoc being very close second.

I've read a lot of your posts Karb, I respect your opinion^^

Question regarding your usage of RR/GH/Apoc, what kind of gear do you use for this set-up? and what Automaton do you generally rely on when you do this? soulsoother? or another set-up?

**Karbuncle** · 09-09-2011 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by xiozen

Question regarding your usage of RR/GH/Apoc, what kind of gear do you use for this set-up?

My PUP gear is terribly incomplete, actually. But as it stands i use...

Taipain+2(Fire) - Animator -
+1 Head - Tierc(orEmp) Brutal - Aesir
Goliard - Relic/Emp+1 - Rajas - Epona's
Pantin - Twilight - +2 legs - Aurore

What i need is

+2 Head/Body/Hands.
Usukane or Enkidu Feet

I don't play as much often, But thats my current TP set. Far from perfect. My WS set is

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230000

Things not changed same as above. This one, again far from perfect. I don't play PUP often...

and what Automaton do you generally rely on when you do this? soulsoother? or another set-up?

I usually do things in groups, So i tend to use the Valoredge Frame or Ranger Frame. but generally ValorEdge. I don't have to worry too much about cures in this situation (Since i generally have a WHM)

**SpankWustler** · 09-09-2011 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by xiozen

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right

You use it, well so can I.

Now, it's entirely possible that I'm too high on muscle relaxants to understand sentences made out of words made out of letters, but here's my take on the quoted sentence:

"I have every right to post incorrect information and I fully intend to make use of this right. I will make use of it like an anteater making use of his or her prehensile tongue. Feels good man."

Is my interpretation of the sentence accurate? If so...I...don't...can't...There is no understanding. My mind is blank but I feel no one-ness with the universe. Buddha was a fat, contented liar.

**xiozen** · 09-09-2011 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

My PUP gear is terribly incomplete, actually. But as it stands i use...

Taipain+2(Fire) - Animator -
+1 Head - Tierc(orEmp) Brutal - Aesir
Goliard - Relic/Emp+1 - Rajas - Epona's
Pantin - Twilight - +2 legs - Aurore

What i need is

+2 Head/Body/Hands.
Usukane or Enkidu Feet

I don't play as much often, But thats my current TP set. Far from perfect. My WS set is

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230000

Things not changed same as above. This one, again far from perfect. I don't play PUP often...

I usually do things in groups, So i tend to use the Valoredge Frame or Ranger Frame. but generally ValorEdge. I don't have to worry too much about cures in this situation (Since i generally have a WHM)

Thanks--for the response.

It's my main, so I thought I'd share as well:

My Evasion set is : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230001 (this works wonders for me /nin or /dnc)

And my Weapon skill set is: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230003 (impressive numbers come from this for me)

I still need to get the +2 head, 4 items shy...but the Anwig w/ Weapon Skill Accuracy +15 works well as a macro item. I play pup as much as I can... can't wait to continue my work towards the Kenkonken. /cheers!

**Vivik** · 09-09-2011 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by xiozen

And my Weapon skill set is: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230003 (impressive numbers come from this for me)

According to your equip history you don't have most of that +2 gear.

**Theytak** · 09-10-2011 12:06 AM

[[ 1) recomends to every pup to use tactical processor: ]]
[[ 1) Absolutely-- and let me add, combine this with the Optic Fiber attachment ]]
[[ 2) offers nor proof or evidence to why or what it does ]]
[[ 2) By doing what I ask, the proof is in the pudding

You'll experience it for yourself. ]]

We have no way of knowing how to prove this ourselves, and further "It's true because I say it's true, if you don't believe me, go do the testing for me and prove it yourself" is not a viable argument. Also, tactical processor was released in 2006, and countless amounts of testing has been done and the overall conclusion of 5 years worth of testing by dozens of different people disagrees with you. Provide the MATHEMATICAL PROOF of your findings, and your statement will be valid.

[[ 7) says SD is a dd atma, discounts slow as negligible, calls 15% TA minor. ]]
[[ 7) edit...never called TA 15%.... i stated that the triple attack was small and that the slow given by SD was more like 12% and not 15%, and yes it is negligible when you use a multi-weapon, and your pet has a +7 tp regain effect (if you liked using Burts, using this atma combined with VV, your automaton will most likely spam it's tp move, or if you have an inhibitor attached, you'll be able to do wonders setting up a mob for major pain). ]]

Let me show you just why sea daughter hurts your damage. Using basic math that anyone with a high school education should be capable of.

Let's just assume a TP set including cirque legs +2 and cirque necklace, that also has capped gear haste (multiple ways to do it, all that matters for this math is that your gear haste is capped). Now, it'll vary a tiny bit based on weapon delay, so I'll do both 61 delay (Taipan+2) and 51 delay (burts/vereth). Assume TP gear includes brutal earring, and warrior sub since we're talking damage output. Not gonna bother with apoc, because I'm just doing baseline math and I don't feel like accounting for Triple attack, note however that apoc would, in this scenario, only further the difference.

Pup90, base h2h delay 340, -20 from gear, +51:
- total delay 371
- TP/hit: 12.5~12.6/round, 6.2-6.3/fist (I don't have any +51 delay weapons on hand to check; if someone knows off the top of their head which it is, since the round tp comes out at 12.55 and tp truncates to the the tenth position, and I can't remember for the life of me what the tp/hit should be here. I'll do both to be safe)
- delay between attack rounds: 6.183 seconds BEFORE HASTE
- Apply 25% Haste: 278.25 delay; 4.6375 seconds between attack rounds
- Apply 10% Haste (with SD): 333.9 delay; 5.565 seconds between attack rounds

Pup90, base h2h delay 340, -20 from gear, +61:
- total delay: 381
- TP/hit: 13/round, 6.5/fist
- delay between attack rounds: 6.35 seconds BEFORE HASTE
- Apply 25% haste; 285.75 delay; 4.7625 seconds between attack rounds,
- Apply 10% haste (with SD): 342.9 delay; 5.715 seconds between attack rounds

Assuming 15% DA rate: TP gain over 5 minutes (300 seconds):
----- 25% haste -----
+51: 64 attack rounds; ~147 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~140 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 868 / 882 (6.2 / 6.3 per hit respectively)
+61: 62 attack rounds; ~142 punches
- Total TP gained: 923
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~135 successful attacks
----- 10% haste -----
+51: 53 attack rounds; ~122 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~116 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 719.2 / 730.8 (6.2 / 6.3 per hit respectively)
+61: 52 attack rounds; ~120 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~114 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 741

Atma of the Sea Daughter: TP gain over 5 minutes (300 seconds)
100 regain ticks at 5 tp/tick; total gain 500 TP

In terms of TP, you can effectively round down to the base hundred for this part, because it's related to WS frequency.

+51 with 25% haste: 8 ws in 5 min
+61 with 25% haste: 9 ws in 5 min
+51 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
+61 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
Note: This is what I meant in regards to Apoc, +25% haste would likely gain at least one additional WS each, while +10% would not (but honestly I'm completely guesstimating that bit).

So yes, Xioxan is correct that he has a greater WS frequency using Atma of the Sea Daughter. However, note that in both cases, the resulting number of successful attacks with sea daughter is lowered by ~25 for the +51, and ~20 for +61. If you assume a generic RR/SS/GH atma set up, and an average of ~80% crit rate, capped h2h skill/merits for a base 42 damage, and a+29 damage weapon (burts/taipan), 71 dmg. Now, I haven't done crit damage math post abyssea, but I do know that with destroyers' +18 at 75 mnk had a ~186 crit damage cap. It's a lot higher in abyssea. Averaging 200+ damage per crit is relatively easy and common. if you assume 200~250 damage per crit (can be higher/lower depending on skill/gear/atma), you lose about 4000~5000 damage just from your melee damage (2~3 stringing pummels accounting for acc variance, crit variance, and "lol, you suck" variance(yes, I consider this a credible variable; it stands for the likelihood of a ws doing shit damage for no explainable reason)).

Effectively, this loss in melee DoT negates any gain SD's regain would give you. These numbers will not be quite as grand for Sharpshot, since sharpshot's damage is primarily WS, but with valoredge, it should come out to roughly the same, if not even more of a loss, depending on your wind maneuver frequency (you need 2 wind maneuvers active at all times while meleeing to negate the loss of haste from SD). If your delay drops into the negative (ie: higher than base). Also keep in mind that the higher your base delay, the more effect slow will have; valoredge's 360 delay should keep it roughly around the same effect as your own h2h, but sharpshot's 400 delay will take a more noticeable hit.

And yes, I realize that you're also trying to use skill chaining as reason for this SD being good, but you also have to realize that these numbers don't account for two things: 1) how rare it is you actually WS at exactly 100% TP, and 2) how much TP gets wasted between master and puppet during the SC process. it's not difficult to lose 30~50 TP per skill chain, and that excess TP is what will lead to an overall loss in damage output.

tl;dr: Atma of the Sea Daughter sucks for damage output. No exceptions.

See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas.

If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right

You use it, well so can I.

Ok, that's just insulting. I've been pup main since 2006, when aht urgan was released, and it has been both my favorite and most played job over the last 5 years. And yes, freedom of speech is a constitutional right. However, freedom of speech does not prove your statements, nor does it exclude you from the human birthrite, the freedom to be really stupid.

**xiozen** · 09-10-2011 12:35 AM