Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

[Dfoley]

Its actually quite worse then just 15% less damage.

When you factor in that its 'gear' haste, and that it slows your pet as well your looking at base line 30% less damage. And no ammount of epeen ws will compensate for that.

[Insaniac]

Its actually quite worse then just 15% less damage.

When you factor in that its 'gear' haste, and that it slows your pet as well your looking at base line 30% less damage. And no ammount of epeen ws will compensate for that.

Actually it's EVEN worse than that. The benefit of haste isn't linear so depending on how much haste you have 15% slow is probably translating into around a 45-50% decrease in DPS not even including the puppet. Using no atma at all would be better than using sea daughter.

[Dfoley]

erm, i use SD all the time for triggering blue/reds, and I can honestly say my dps takes a HUGE hit when i use SD over any other of the common DD atma.

The only time it would be good is if you had 40% gear haste...

On a side note, you can just shorten your sig to:

They see me trollin, they hatin....

since every time you post its just another set of obviously bad information.

[Zhronne]

Yes, the first two hits of each weapon skill get a 15% chance to proc it, as far as the total number of hits remains under 8.
Which means that you get a 15%x2 chance to get FOUR additional hits on Victory Smite, for example, and all of those four hits also have a chance to be criticals, with all the bonus that Razed Ruins brings along concerning critical hits.

I'm not a big fan of AoApocalypse Myself for other silly OCD reasons, but it's undeniable that it's one of the highest damage enhancing Atmas. Anybody can check it out with MATHEMATIC PROOF (i.e. not single users' opinions) running a Spreadsheet, for example Kinematic's/Motenten's.

I'm not an elitist, I don't have big problems accepting people who say "I don't want to use it for this or that silly reason", but spreading wrong information and saying it's a "meh" atma or that it's a "pretty low" triple attack is just wrong, imho.

[xiozen]

Anybody can check it out with MATHEMATIC PROOF (i.e. not single users' opinions) running a Spreadsheet, for example Kinematic's/Motenten's.

Proof? Let me give you the definition of proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth

You profess to state that the kinematic's/Motenten's spreadsheet is sufficient proof to base your opinions off of... and that's ok... for you. It seems that you'd prefer to use someone else's opinion (is the developer of the kinematics spreadsheet) a prior SE developer of the FFXI game? In order for me to use someone elses' formulas and calculations (who knows where the raw data originated from... ) Its so easy to "hmm tweak this and tweak that..." to make it fit an equation in excel it's not even funny--and to have people blindly follow along assuming the information is correct, this is based off of their own lack of knowledge...

I can only assume the blind leading the blind, because, ta da...we're not developers of this game, merely players...that can, at most, use what has been provided to use and try to determine how best it fits our gaming needs.

So please, spare me to...link to said spreadsheet to prove anything... its a waste of time. I prefer to "try things out on my own and experience them first hand" to base my opinion on what works and what does not work...then I share those "experiences" (key word) with others.

[Zhronne]

You profess to state that the kinematic's/Motenten's spreadsheet is sufficient proof to base your opinions off of... and that's ok... for you.

I don't think I "professed" anything. I think I rather stated, but maybe we're getting into a linguistic knot. As it should be clear enough from my posts English is not my mother language, furtherly it's offtopic to the goals of our discussion so let's leave it away for now, shall we?

The important part about this quoted sentence is that final "for you". Mathematics, at least this kind of math, is not relative. It is, period. It's objective, it's not an opinion, there's not a "for me", a "for you", a "for him".
Motenten is not a perfect being without flaws, he's a human being and hence susceptible to mistakes, but his work has been checked by several people, it's not just his own work. You can check it yourself if you open the xls file and do some deep analysys of the math imbued in that file.
It has reliability.
It has proof because it's not someone stating an opinion or reporting a parse data with a non-statistically reliable number of fights.
It's not someone just sharing his personal opinion.
It's mostly just raw ojbective mathematical data.
As imperfect as that may be (since it's obviously impossible to realize a mathematical model that includes each and every variable that could possibly happen) it's certainly much closer to "perfection" than any of our personal opinion because it's supported by:
1) a reliable, objective and efficient mathematical model
2) a great amount of data
3) it is consistent (reproducible)

It's a bit preposterous that I'm the one advocating such things, since I'm definitely a pretty math-ignorant kind of person, it feels a bit awkward.

It seems that you'd prefer to use someone else's opinion

You see, once again I don't wanna say that you are "wrong", I wanna be optimistic and just guess that you still haven't got the concept behind it.
It is NOT Kinematic's or ANYBODY else's opinion. It is NOT an opinion
Kinematic's spreadsheet is not an assembled document of opinions.
It is an instrument.
You don't just "read" it, you "use" it.
To use a metaphor, it's not a table with a lot of numbers and people's comments suggesting which numbers to use.
It's more like a calculator allowing you to perform several mathematical operations to get objective data. FROM this objective data (which is mostly undeniable and hardly susceptible to opinions) each of us can get to his own personal conclusions and decisions according to the content he has to do, his gear or just his own personal preference.
I trust it's clearer now? I hope Or maybe someone with a better knowledge of the english language might attempt to explain things to you in a more efficient way.

and to have people blindly follow

There's nothing to "blindly follow" in a spreadsheet. It has no indications. As I mentioned before it's just an instrument in your own hands. He just provides raw objective data, it's you who decide what to do with that data and which conclusions to get to.

But again, why are we discussing so much about Kine's or anybody elses's spreadsheet? What's the point? A Spreadsheet is mostly used to fine-tune a character or to make a better decision on something you're unsure of. There can be some big surprises there.


The big point of our discussion here is rather the thing about slow, and that has little to do with Kine's spreadsheet. Did you manage to read the link I suggested above? Even my grandmother could probably understand it.
Hell, even I am able to understand that sort of things and trust me I've never been good with math and related stuff.

I can only assume the blind leading the blind

Stop making silly philosophy.
We're not in a lesson of sociology here, and we're not discussing about the moral value of leading people and people being led.
No space to make ideology or even discuss about them.
We're just talking about data and objective mathematical stuff, don't take a further step please and try to stay focused on this.
I don't know if someone's been rude to you or if you're taking this too personal.
If you just don't fully grasp the importance of the Haste mechanic in a game like FFXI it's no big deal, nobody did at first, right?
It's no problem, just get yourself informed, feed yourself with that "knowledge" you talk of, and you'll realize for yourself what other people have been more or less educatedly trying to tell you

[xiozen]

In response to Zhronne, very lengthy post... and I'll just end it here with reiterating my position--I'm not asking for confirmation--I don't need any, really I don't. But nevertheless I do (believe it or not) appreciate seeing others opinions, and we all have a way to play. So I'll leave it at that...and again, thx for the feedback, much appreciated. ^.^

[Urteil]

Proof? Let me give you the definition of proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth

You profess to state that the kinematic's/Motenten's spreadsheet is sufficient proof to base your opinions off of... and that's ok... for you. It seems that you'd prefer to use someone else's opinion (is the developer of the kinematics spreadsheet) a prior SE developer of the FFXI game? In order for me to use someone elses' formulas and calculations (who knows where the raw data originated from... ) Its so easy to "hmm tweak this and tweak that..." to make it fit an equation in excel it's not even funny--and to have people blindly follow along assuming the information is correct, this is based off of their own lack of knowledge...

I can only assume the blind leading the blind, because, ta da...we're not developers of this game, merely players...that can, at most, use what has been provided to use and try to determine how best it fits our gaming needs.

So please, spare me to...link to said spreadsheet to prove anything... its a waste of time. I prefer to "try things out on my own and experience them first hand" to base my opinion on what works and what does not work...then I share those "experiences" (key word) with others.

People like you will spend an eternity asking why, only to find out out the real question should have been how.

[esoR]

just adding: RR/VV/Apoc is my preferred combo with VE or just soloing (swap VV for stout arm with sharpshot, keep VV for valorshot) the double attack and regain rate, improve your automatons ws rate dramatically as well as your own.

dont forget the 50 str, which is a pummel mod, and base atk. SS might net higher spike damage, but VV will guarantee you a much much higher ws rate, and much more damage over time if you play aggresive. on average, except for random triple attacks, my pummels stay relatively close to my ls mnk's smites with that atma combo, with my VE frame hitting almost as often for 2.5k string shredders.
overall its a nice sett-up to use, that allows flexibility in subjob and survivability.