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[Telford]

Sorry to hear you lost your post Theytak, I always like to read about peoples pup testing.

The interface here needs work, I spent a very long time looking for the spoilers tags once only to find them under the completely intuitive HB tags (a google search at the time seems to indicate that this is the only forum that uses HB), and then I spent another long time thinking I used them wrong because the preview would never put my text in a spoiler box. But I did learn that the two sets of little arrows pointing up and down on the right of the tool bar expands the posting window.

[Theytak]

Sorry to hear you lost your post Theytak, I always like to read about peoples pup testing.

The interface here needs work, I spent a very long time looking for the spoilers tags once only to find them under the completely intuitive HB tags (a google search at the time seems to indicate that this is the only forum that uses HB), and then I spent another long time thinking I used them wrong because the preview would never put my text in a spoiler box. But I did learn that the two sets of little arrows pointing up and down on the right of the tool bar expands the posting window.

oh hey, they do. That's really useful. Also, the post was basically just math-proving everything Dfoley already said. A basic summary now that I'm not grumpy at the forum:

+10 refresh from atma = max of 3 nukes before triggering aspir, assuming atma of the ultimate and estimating the mp cost of thunder V and max mp of stormwaker at 95. 4 without atma of the ultimate. +15 refresh gives you 4/5 depending on ultimate. If you use allure and some other MAB atma, you'll get 4 nukes. If you get +20 refresh (MM+2 other refresh atma), you can nuke 28ish times before aspir, but with a pretty sizable loss to your damage. Using MM + 2 Max MP atma (allure+1k needles is the most, +50%), is totally impractical and barely any better than allure on it's own.

The one exception is from 6:00 to 18:00 game time, with Atma of the Foe Flayer, you get about half an hour of unlimited nukes, because the 30 mp/tick refresh it gives completely negates the cost of Thunder/Blizz5 at the rate at which pup can nuke (42~45 seconds between nukes, accounting for casting time and recast time, if you have mana channeler on). Actually, 21-22mp/tick refresh completely negates the cost of Thunder/Blizz5 at that rate, depending on the cost of thunder V.

For shits and giggles, I found that at the absolute most, with mana channeler and atma of the foe flayer's refresh effect, if you land your 3rd nuke at 5:33 game time, you can get off 44 nukes over the course of about 30 minutes before you trigger aspir (3 before refresh starts, 41 while refresh is active).

Also, rough math found that not using Mana Channeler actually gave you less ability to nuke before triggering aspir, since you lose about 30-40 mp (depending on when the ticks fall) from your refresh gain. At 42 seconds per nuke, you recover 140 mp between every cast, thus effectively reducing the cost of Blizzard V to 142 and Thunder V to ~150 (I estimated it to around 290, based on the differences between the mp costs of the other tier V spells) Every 5 mp of refresh tacked on reduces the effective mp cost by 70. Without mana channeler's extra 5 seconds per nuke, you lose 1.5-2 ticks of refresh per nuke, increasing spell costs by 30 across the board. As it stands, 2 spells leaves you with just barely enough MP to not trigger aspir (76-77%), and the 30-40 mp difference in spell cost is enough to push you over, having 73-74% mp after 2 nukes, thus reducing the amount of nukes you get off by one across the board (excluding 20mp/tick refresh, which you actually lose more than 2. I didn't bother to crunch the loss, since the combo was totally impractical, though.

And again, Foe Flayer is the exception, because its huge mp gain is enough to nullify the extra mp cost losing mana channeler creates, and thus while it's active, you actually do still get off a few extra spells. I didn't bother to crunch that number either, though I will now, since I'm curious... since you lose one off the initial... you'd get 48 nukes, give or take 2.