SE, Temper Activation Rate

[Hyrist]

Sorry Ray, but I gotta pick your post apart and reel you back in before you go over the deep end.

Just be aware other people are around to do the same courtesy to you, cid. You are just as prone to heated debate an insults as the rest of us.

Yes let's. On other forums this might be acceptable, but here we know the devs are listening and both camps have good reason to fear the other side getting the dev's ear because then the job will evolve with their input influencing the devs.

An what is bad about further developing an otherwise neglected aspect of the job? If anything I hope it is a sign that they won't forget their more casual base when developing the new endgame. Right now, Voidwatch doesn't have a broad appeal, not nearly when compared to how effective Abyssea was. (Though admitted, Abyssea was wide in scope.)

Red Mage has always been conceptually a hybrid job with more leanings towards it's magic side. And you're arguing against the further development of it, why? Because you're afraid it will take the job in an undesired direction when the whole of endgame itself is still mostly an unknown? As you've acknowledged, Melee is part of the job that will not go away. The question I pose to you is, why not develop it further and give it a specific role in which it is acceptable by the community?

As you said, the development eyes are here, but more importantly, the eyes of the community at large are directed this way as well. There's an opportunity here to carve a niche for Red Mage's martial side that will stem the arguments once an for all, and help develop a proper course for feedback in development.

The debate shouldn't be 'No don't give RDM any melee updates.' or 'It's a waste of development time.' It should be an argument of the whens and hows. And then progress into developments that feed those whens.

The biggest goal for most melee enthusiasts is that there is an acceptable 'role' for frontline within groups. Not ALL groups, mind you, but a good deal more than what's being seen as acceptable on the forums at least. Gameplay is a different story and people are far more lenient there, in my experience.

No, but with the limited man-hours of a reduced development staff working on an old game, there is the very real fear of neglect, which is just as crippling.

This argument would hold weight, ANY weight at all if it didn't come into testing at the exact same time as Spontaneity. If anything what this argues is a lack(or loss) of patience. If there is any doubt that RDM is going to come into its own in terms of being caster, it is more due to the lack of overall faith in Square Enix as a company to fill the bill, and has little to nothing to do with the Melee debate in general.

Tacking it into the debate itself is a straw-man argument. There is nothing preventing the development of both aspects of the job, or even intertwining the two, which would be my preference.

The problem is that aside from damage, Red Mage doesn't add much by being on the front lines and they can already add that damage in the form of nukes. Additionally to melee competently you have to give up a large chunk of inventory. Nukes provide respectable damage the same as melee, but do not suffer from the opportunity cost since a lot of the gear for nuking also functions for the rest of what Red Mage is already providing, thus offering more flexibility in gearing. The more flexibility you have in your gear, the more you can accomplish while on Red Mage.

Again, I disagree. If you're separating Potency from Accuracy in your enfeebles, Nuking actually costs you a decent amount in possible gear pieces, especially in accessory slots. Right now RDM has a poor representation of INT base enfeebles to justify the use of an INT based gear set, and only gear it mainly to accompany Nuking as well. However M.Atk serves no other purpose than nuking itself (Except for magic based WSes, which is more an argument for fixing magical WSes to matter more), and maxing out said stat can cost a good amount of gear slots on its own. Granted, not as much as TP and WS set.

But here in lies the difference between nuking and Melee. While it is currently more gear intensive, it is also more sustainable than Nuking everywhere outside Abyssea. Nuking is still a large MP investment, even with Refresh II and 6+ Refresh in idle gear. Nuking is also TIME intensive. Nothing prevents you from interrupting your melee to toss out a sudden cure, refresh a Debuff, or in the super-rare cases you're meleeing /drk or /blm, toss out a much needed stun (suppose you can do that /dnc too with violent flourish.) However, if you're caught casting a nuke when you're in need for this, the best you can do is take a knee and hope you can stand back up enough to cast in time to cure.

In situations in which you can casually contribute damage without substantial risk, Melee typically wins out over nuking. The issue is of course the risk involved, not really the gear involved at this point, though RDM stands to benefit from getting more Hybrid or attack orientated gear, that's for sure.

I'd like to see a more varied endgame, honestly. Something that encourages more hybrid play up until a boss fight. This way RDM can start on in swinging, then swap out gear to the mog sack/satchel real quick to pull out the needed mage gear for bosses, or even separate the two instances but keep them related (currency earned in a fodder run goes to costs of boss pops for a boss run.) That way we're tackeling more in depth problems than simply "Oh hey this monsters waaay too hard for light damage jobs to be swinging at it."

For Example:
I LIKE the New Dynamis stagger system, honestly. Playing RDM/DNC (If I'm not /sch for status removals or /blm for crowd control) is amazing to work on procs. Having more people in the thick of things for JA and WS procs actually helps, and the fact that I'm a lower damage scale actually means that when heavier DD's hold off, I can work the monster up to try to get in the highly desired "!!".

If the future of endgame works more along those lines I'd be more happy in using both aspects of my Job. But I've no illusions about developing our support and enfeeble aspects further for Bosses. I'm fine with that concept. But there's no need to get in a holler about developing the melee side, especially if endgame tends to be more varied, which I sincerely hope it does.

[Karbuncle]

some times idiots just need to be told they are idiots.

I disagree !

But thats okay in the end.

[cidbahamut]

Dangit Cid, I was on a roll! lol

I can't provide the numbers on exactly how many RDM's wanted melee boosts, but considering the absolute lethargy the dev team has had involving anything RDM related since before even Abyssea, the fact that they have taken the time to do something should show there was at least enough demand to grab their attention. Even the JP playerbase has been clamoring for it from what I hear(can't quote it, I can't read japanese). So, it's sort of just saying the existence of a sizable boost says how much of a demand there is. Getting new self-only spells that are specifically for melee(Temp, Gain-STR, DEX, etc) should tell you that there is indeed a sizable demand. Far more than some of the mage-only enthusiasts would lead you to believe.

See, it's that lethargy that has me worried, since I don't trust SE to hand out a balanced set of updates that appeal to everyone. The fear is that they'll shift their focus to finally enhancing melee and the mage side (and subsequently Red Mage as a whole) will suffer for it. If not through active nerfs then certainly through the same kind of neglect they showed melee for years.

Temper is the only thing so far that's clearly designed as a melee update. Gain STR and DEX are simply the continuation of an already existing line of buffs. We knew they were coming and their arrival does not signify anything more than that.

Lastly, demand is only an indicator of popularity, not of something's worth. Earth Staff/turtle Paladins were popular for a while but that didn't make them good. Make the case for the usefulness of your playstyle, but don't confuse popularity for merit, especially when most of FFXI's population wears their pants on their head.

And yes, nuking can provide a sizeable amount of damage, but how many nukes are you getting off while cycling through spells? And this just brings us back to the question of why even have a RDM in the party; if I want someone standing in the back nuking, I can think of a job I'd rather have, that can still provide cures and buffs /whm(BLM, anyone?).

Depends. Shit's situational.

It's situational; some mobs, magic damage from nuking is ineffective. Some mobs are weak to weapons(qutrubs, for example), so weapon damage would be more ideal I would think. Also, consider melee doesn't carry the casting time and mp cost that nuking does; I can still cure, buff, and enfeeble, with melee attacks slipping through in between(and during) the spells being cast.

Melee carries no mp cost or casting time, but what it does carry is a prohibitive TP:damage ratio. We're still going to end up back at the time old mantra of "Shit's situational", that will never change.

Nitpicking: melee attacks don't actually occur during casting, it's just how the animation plays out.

Melee 100% of the time is not optimal, and isn't even what a lot of us are asking for.

And again, SE is already working on new and fixing old enfeebles. So again, nobody is taking your staff away from you.

I'm happy to add Temper to my arsenal for when I go Dark Ring farming, but I don't really consider it to be a major addition to our job. It's a fun little toy to help out on mauling fodder mobs, but we could already pull that off fairly well.

SE said they would fix enfeebles, but they also said they're pretty ok with how things have been in regards to damn near every NM having a ton of immunities to said enfeebles, so I am understandably concerned in that regard. I'd also like to point out again that lack of active removal of functionality does not preclude the possibility of neglect(as evidenced by Red Mage's melee situation for the last eight years).

[cidbahamut]

Just be aware other people are around to do the same courtesy to you, cid. You are just as prone to heated debate an insults as the rest of us.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

If anything I hope it is a sign that they won't forget their more casual base when developing the new endgame.

Since when do you design endgame content with casual players in mind?

[Rayik]

See, it's that lethargy that has me worried, since I don't trust SE to hand out a balanced set of updates that appeal to everyone. The fear is that they'll shift their focus to finally enhancing melee and the mage side (and subsequently Red Mage as a whole) will suffer for it. If not through active nerfs then certainly through the same kind of neglect they showed melee for years.

True, but what choice do we have? None of us are SE developers. None that I've seen, anyway. We can prattle on and on about what each of us think the job is, or the direction we think is best, but none of us are actually handling the game's development. Yes, our feedback on this forum is the closest we're ever going to get, but we have no choice but to let SE do their thing, and give feedback accordingly. If anyone really distrusts SE more than that, why would they still play this game?

Temper is the only thing so far that's clearly designed as a melee update. Gain STR and DEX are simply the continuation of an already existing line of buffs. We knew they were coming and their arrival does not signify anything more than that.

Gotta nitpick you a little bit. Gain-Str and Dex are a LOT more than "just a continuation;" they give you a bonus to melee stats. I consider that a melee buff. Gain-Mnd and Int will surely help spell casting, but Gain-Str is absolutely a melee buff. Unles I'm missing something involving Str and spellcasting...

Lastly, demand is only an indicator of popularity, not of something's worth. Earth Staff/turtle Paladins were popular for a while but that didn't make them good. Make the case for the usefulness of your playstyle, but don't confuse popularity for merit, especially when most of FFXI's population wears their pants on their head.

If it's an indicator of popularity, as you say here, then what does that say for the melee crowd? We're popular all of a sudden? Not a bad thing from my perspective.

Melee carries no mp cost or casting time, but what it does carry is a prohibitive TP:damage ratio. We're still going to end up back at the time old mantra of "Shit's situational", that will never change.

Nitpicking: melee attacks don't actually occur during casting, it's just how the animation plays out.

Once our prohibitive TP:damage output ratio comes a little closer, you're saying melee will be viable? I think this hinges largely on the WS adjustment portion of the update. If it works in our favor, if we gain access to WS like Vorpal Blade, then those in addition to having magian/empyrean weps, STR/DEX boosting spells, DA, all that shiny new haste gear, new swords, etc sounds like a pretty good recipe for melee output to me. The +AGI on that new sword also adds to Subtle Blow, also that drain-tp effect further lessening the prohibitive TP we dish out.

I'm happy to add Temper to my arsenal for when I go Dark Ring farming, but I don't really consider it to be a major addition to our job. It's a fun little toy to help out on mauling fodder mobs, but we could already pull that off fairly well.

SE said they would fix enfeebles, but they also said they're pretty ok with how things have been in regards to damn near every NM having a ton of immunities to said enfeebles, so I am understandably concerned in that regard. I'd also like to point out again that lack of active removal of functionality does not preclude the possibility of neglect(as evidenced by Red Mage's melee situation for the last eight years).

Well, if SE indeed leaves the existing enfeeble immunities/ridiculous resistances in place, maybe it's time we tried something different in a group situation to compensate? Just sayin, it might be time to switch things up a bit.

[Rayik]

Since when do you design endgame content with casual players in mind?

Maybe when a MMO is getting close to a decade old, and getting new players is very important?

EDIT: When most of the rest of the game's Endgame content has already been made more casual?

[cidbahamut]

Gotta nitpick you a little bit. Gain-Str and Dex are a LOT more than "just a continuation;" they give you a bonus to melee stats. I consider that a melee buff. Gain-Mnd and Int will surely help spell casting, but Gain-Str is absolutely a melee buff. Unles I'm missing something involving Str and spellcasting...

Nah. I was trying to point out that while they do benefit melee considerably, those spells were not designed specifically as an update to RDM's melee capabilities. They're simply part of a line of general purpose utility spells. It'd be like saying Black Mage getting Blizzard V was a buff to their ice damage. While it's technically true, it's just a logical progression of what's already been laid out previously.

Once our prohibitive TP:damage output ratio comes a little closer, you're saying melee will be viable? I think this hinges largely on the WS adjustment portion of the update. If it works in our favor, if we gain access to WS like Vorpal Blade, then those in addition to having magian/empyrean weps, STR/DEX boosting spells, DA, all that shiny new haste gear, new swords, etc sounds like a pretty good recipe for melee output to me. The +AGI on that new sword also adds to Subtle Blow, also that drain-tp effect further lessening the prohibitive TP we dish out.

I don't know that resolving the TP:damage ratio would actually change things. It's not that it's the sole thing preventing us from taking to the front lines, it's that it provides a major risk for doing so. Since we can do our maging from the backlines, it makes more sense to be there if our sword swinging provides more risk than reward. But again, we as a community still don't have a standard for measuring that. Heck, I'm not convinced that even zero TP per hit would be enough to place us at the front(short of having an alliance of RDMs guffawing at NMs without regain).

It's the age old problem of having to protect the mages because they're so much more valuable than the disposable meat shields that populate the front lines. It's partially a community problem, but it's also a problem of game mechanics and it's very difficult to tell where one half of it ends and the other begins, which makes it a very difficult problem to solve. But hey, I'm not a game designer so it's not my job to figure out how to make that happen, all I can do is offer up my opinions.

Well, if SE indeed leaves the existing enfeeble immunities/ridiculous resistances in place, maybe it's time we tried something different in a group situation to compensate? Just sayin, it might be time to switch things up a bit.

Maybe, but I think all that would realistically accomplish is banishing RDMs to the mog house with the letters "lolRDM" carved into our foreheads. I don't think any of us want that.

[cidbahamut]

Maybe when a MMO is getting close to a decade old, and getting new players is very important?

EDIT: When most of the rest of the game's Endgame content has already been made more casual?

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

[Rayik]

Nah. I was trying to point out that while they do benefit melee considerably, those spells were not designed specifically as an update to RDM's melee capabilities. They're simply part of a line of general purpose utility spells. It'd be like saying Black Mage getting Blizzard V was a buff to their ice damage. While it's technically true, it's just a logical progression of what's already been laid out previously.

Ok, I see where you're coming from with the rest of your post, but this is killing me. You can't count the new Gain spells separate from being a true melee buff and then turn around and say they buff melee, but it doesn't count because they were going to anyway previously? We got swords 8 years ago, I think that predates the Gain spells considerably in the "logical progression of melee" thing. Gain-STR is a new spell that's self only, and boosts melee, right there alongside Temper. Logical continuation or not, it is what it is, and those two together are a considerable boost for melee.

We're saying the same thing, just seems like classifying them differently for some reason.

[Rayik]

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

Abyssea is about as casual as it gets, was completely new endgame content, and in addition SE completely revamped Dynamis and removed the level cap from CoP and several nation missions. I think that's a pretty glaring approach to making endgame content more casual. I haven't done Voidwatch yet, so I really can't comment on it.