SE, Temper Activation Rate

[Rayik]

You guys can pop that BS all day, but the fact is that when you are on the front line poking and taking damage, you are not curing, hasting, slowing, paralyzing, blinding, diaing, addling, poisoning, refreshing etc. like you are supposed to be. Hell if you cast any of that shit you completely lose all dd efficiency and purpose on the front line due to constant casting. and thats not even taking into account that you are casting in swords now. Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would. Quit being childish and trying to act like everyone needs to be doing that crap.

SE has already made a stance that they are bulking up our melee. Talk about "give it up" and "acting childish." It's not a theory anymore, RDM melee is a play style preference for many Red Mages. If the numbers were so small and niche as you try to paint "us" out to be, there would be no melee boost. Period. The fact that they went as far as to give us gear, self-only spells, JA's, etc, should be more than enough for you mage-only fascists to take your heads out of your rears and leave the rest of us alone. It's a preference for crying out loud. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Some of us find RDM melee fun. Wow, let's fight about it.

Nobody is taking your staff away from you.

And really, I've been on the front lines melee'ing, curing, hasting, refreshing, dia'ing all day, just fine. Just because you put zero effort into something, if you don't lift a finger to make something out of it, of course it's going to be worthless to you.

[cidbahamut]

Sorry Ray, but I gotta pick your post apart and reel you back in before you go over the deep end.

SE has already made a stance that they are bulking up our melee. Talk about "give it up" and "acting childish."

Valid

It's not a theory anymore, RDM melee is a play style preference for many Red Mages. If the numbers were so small and niche as you try to paint "us" out to be, there would be no melee boost. Period.

I challenge you(or the mage enthusiasts) to present evidence of these numbers. It's all hearsay and personal experiences with nothing substantive that we can point to and say "here is the exact divide within the community and X is clearly more popular than Y across all servers". Until we have that data, that argument cannot be made.

The fact that they went as far as to give us gear, self-only spells, JA's, etc, should be more than enough for you mage-only fascists to take your heads out of your rears and leave the rest of us alone. It's a preference for crying out loud. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Uncalled for.

Preference is a personal choice, it carries no weight of correctness or superiority or even viability. Someone could have a preference for wielding staves on Paladin but that doesn't mean that preference should be cultivated at the expense of development man-hours.

Asking people to stop heckling you, that I'm ok with. There's too much resentment and bitterness surrounding these discussions.

Some of us find RDM melee fun. Wow, let's fight about it.

Yes let's. On other forums this might be acceptable, but here we know the devs are listening and both camps have good reason to fear the other side getting the dev's ear because then the job will evolve with their input influencing the devs.

Nobody is taking your staff away from you.

No, but with the limited man-hours of a reduced development staff working on an old game, there is the very real fear of neglect, which is just as crippling.

And really, I've been on the front lines melee'ing, curing, hasting, refreshing, dia'ing all day, just fine. Just because you put zero effort into something, if you don't lift a finger to make something out of it, of course it's going to be worthless to you.

The problem is that aside from damage, Red Mage doesn't add much by being on the front lines and they can already add that damage in the form of nukes. Additionally to melee competently you have to give up a large chunk of inventory. Nukes provide respectable damage the same as melee, but do not suffer from the opportunity cost since a lot of the gear for nuking also functions for the rest of what Red Mage is already providing, thus offering more flexibility in gearing. The more flexibility you have in your gear, the more you can accomplish while on Red Mage.

[Hyrist]

Sorry Ray, but I gotta pick your post apart and reel you back in before you go over the deep end.

Just be aware other people are around to do the same courtesy to you, cid. You are just as prone to heated debate an insults as the rest of us.

Yes let's. On other forums this might be acceptable, but here we know the devs are listening and both camps have good reason to fear the other side getting the dev's ear because then the job will evolve with their input influencing the devs.

An what is bad about further developing an otherwise neglected aspect of the job? If anything I hope it is a sign that they won't forget their more casual base when developing the new endgame. Right now, Voidwatch doesn't have a broad appeal, not nearly when compared to how effective Abyssea was. (Though admitted, Abyssea was wide in scope.)

Red Mage has always been conceptually a hybrid job with more leanings towards it's magic side. And you're arguing against the further development of it, why? Because you're afraid it will take the job in an undesired direction when the whole of endgame itself is still mostly an unknown? As you've acknowledged, Melee is part of the job that will not go away. The question I pose to you is, why not develop it further and give it a specific role in which it is acceptable by the community?

As you said, the development eyes are here, but more importantly, the eyes of the community at large are directed this way as well. There's an opportunity here to carve a niche for Red Mage's martial side that will stem the arguments once an for all, and help develop a proper course for feedback in development.

The debate shouldn't be 'No don't give RDM any melee updates.' or 'It's a waste of development time.' It should be an argument of the whens and hows. And then progress into developments that feed those whens.

The biggest goal for most melee enthusiasts is that there is an acceptable 'role' for frontline within groups. Not ALL groups, mind you, but a good deal more than what's being seen as acceptable on the forums at least. Gameplay is a different story and people are far more lenient there, in my experience.

No, but with the limited man-hours of a reduced development staff working on an old game, there is the very real fear of neglect, which is just as crippling.

This argument would hold weight, ANY weight at all if it didn't come into testing at the exact same time as Spontaneity. If anything what this argues is a lack(or loss) of patience. If there is any doubt that RDM is going to come into its own in terms of being caster, it is more due to the lack of overall faith in Square Enix as a company to fill the bill, and has little to nothing to do with the Melee debate in general.

Tacking it into the debate itself is a straw-man argument. There is nothing preventing the development of both aspects of the job, or even intertwining the two, which would be my preference.

The problem is that aside from damage, Red Mage doesn't add much by being on the front lines and they can already add that damage in the form of nukes. Additionally to melee competently you have to give up a large chunk of inventory. Nukes provide respectable damage the same as melee, but do not suffer from the opportunity cost since a lot of the gear for nuking also functions for the rest of what Red Mage is already providing, thus offering more flexibility in gearing. The more flexibility you have in your gear, the more you can accomplish while on Red Mage.

Again, I disagree. If you're separating Potency from Accuracy in your enfeebles, Nuking actually costs you a decent amount in possible gear pieces, especially in accessory slots. Right now RDM has a poor representation of INT base enfeebles to justify the use of an INT based gear set, and only gear it mainly to accompany Nuking as well. However M.Atk serves no other purpose than nuking itself (Except for magic based WSes, which is more an argument for fixing magical WSes to matter more), and maxing out said stat can cost a good amount of gear slots on its own. Granted, not as much as TP and WS set.

But here in lies the difference between nuking and Melee. While it is currently more gear intensive, it is also more sustainable than Nuking everywhere outside Abyssea. Nuking is still a large MP investment, even with Refresh II and 6+ Refresh in idle gear. Nuking is also TIME intensive. Nothing prevents you from interrupting your melee to toss out a sudden cure, refresh a Debuff, or in the super-rare cases you're meleeing /drk or /blm, toss out a much needed stun (suppose you can do that /dnc too with violent flourish.) However, if you're caught casting a nuke when you're in need for this, the best you can do is take a knee and hope you can stand back up enough to cast in time to cure.

In situations in which you can casually contribute damage without substantial risk, Melee typically wins out over nuking. The issue is of course the risk involved, not really the gear involved at this point, though RDM stands to benefit from getting more Hybrid or attack orientated gear, that's for sure.

I'd like to see a more varied endgame, honestly. Something that encourages more hybrid play up until a boss fight. This way RDM can start on in swinging, then swap out gear to the mog sack/satchel real quick to pull out the needed mage gear for bosses, or even separate the two instances but keep them related (currency earned in a fodder run goes to costs of boss pops for a boss run.) That way we're tackeling more in depth problems than simply "Oh hey this monsters waaay too hard for light damage jobs to be swinging at it."

For Example:
I LIKE the New Dynamis stagger system, honestly. Playing RDM/DNC (If I'm not /sch for status removals or /blm for crowd control) is amazing to work on procs. Having more people in the thick of things for JA and WS procs actually helps, and the fact that I'm a lower damage scale actually means that when heavier DD's hold off, I can work the monster up to try to get in the highly desired "!!".

If the future of endgame works more along those lines I'd be more happy in using both aspects of my Job. But I've no illusions about developing our support and enfeeble aspects further for Bosses. I'm fine with that concept. But there's no need to get in a holler about developing the melee side, especially if endgame tends to be more varied, which I sincerely hope it does.

[cidbahamut]

Just be aware other people are around to do the same courtesy to you, cid. You are just as prone to heated debate an insults as the rest of us.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

If anything I hope it is a sign that they won't forget their more casual base when developing the new endgame.

Since when do you design endgame content with casual players in mind?

[Rayik]

Since when do you design endgame content with casual players in mind?

Maybe when a MMO is getting close to a decade old, and getting new players is very important?

EDIT: When most of the rest of the game's Endgame content has already been made more casual?

[cidbahamut]

Maybe when a MMO is getting close to a decade old, and getting new players is very important?

EDIT: When most of the rest of the game's Endgame content has already been made more casual?

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

[Rayik]

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

Abyssea is about as casual as it gets, was completely new endgame content, and in addition SE completely revamped Dynamis and removed the level cap from CoP and several nation missions. I think that's a pretty glaring approach to making endgame content more casual. I haven't done Voidwatch yet, so I really can't comment on it.

[Hyrist]

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

A difference that needs to be blurred, in my opinion.

I have to wonder what your specific idea of 'endgame' is. Is it just tier based monsters you fight over and over again? As I Stated before in other forums, I find that sort of endgame rather boring and monotone. You can have many difficult bosses you can fight ,but it starts to degrade into the same old tank and spank with various "oh, but you have to hit this specific weakness." It lacks a lot about what I liked in Final Fantasy in general, where it was the players that were outnumbered, not the monster.

Not that I say they should abolish that direction, but to reinvest some time back into the Dynamis/Einherjar/Walk of Echoes/Salvage, bit where there were weaker monsters to handle first, or like Assaults/Campaign Ops where there was actual objectives that needed to be met. These situations could lend itself both to the casual player and more to the martial aspects (up until the bosses).

It's possible to make such an endgame accessible to the casual player yet still have the difficulty and rewards craved by the hardcore endgame base as well. It's really not all that hard, actually.

Here's one for you:

A lesser currency can be gained by doing 'fodder runs' in an arena setting that could use any particular zone. The currency can be used to buy mid-tier upgrades or temp items to assist performances in the run, as well as 'passes' to hop in the arena for boss fights which are done as separate runs. The higher the 'tier' mob, the higher currency cost.

Bosses drop trophies (key items that drop for everyone) that can be exchanged for high end gear. And the best of the gear require trophies form an entire series of mobs, rather than just one particular boss.

To spice things up, you can have some monsters in the fodder run be immune to magical damage, or physical damage, or have specific (and random) objectives to each run. (Think Nyzul Isle with a bit more depth.)

It's not hard to create a system that entertains both aspects. The idea here is to keep the appeal broad.

Endgame shouldn't be something reserved specifically for the hardcore base. And while it's nice to have the HNM system on a forced-pop basis, that only appeals to one category of possible endgame, and it really narrows the scope of play that was burst wide open by Abyssea.

I don't see that as intelligent game design. When you make a change that profound, you kinda need to follow through with it. I don't mind that the Hardcore Players got their hard fights back. In fact, I like it. But keeping the concept of 'endgame' broad will keep more players around.


Anyways, we're getting off topic. There are parts of the game (Granted, some of the older content.) in which RDM's frontline performances do work to benefit due to decreased difficulty and the resulting lower performance needs. There's nothing wrong with developing this further to make the martial aspects of the job more viable.

It would be something optional, but at least acceptable.