SE, Temper Activation Rate

[Neisan_Quetz]

Unless they change our merit category that isn't going to change 5/5 Slow II being negligible compared to 1/5 Slow 2 at capped dMND.

[Stylin]

Unless they change our merit category that isn't going to change 5/5 Slow II being negligible compared to 1/5 Slow 2 at capped dMND.

I wasn't talking to you. My apologies for not using a quote. At the time I was typing that out you had not yet responded.

[Mageoholic]

You are aware that they are also making adjustments to enfeebling magic, right?

Ill believe that when I see it. As it stands the only issue with enfeebles is mobs immunities to them. Locked out because according to popular opinion RDM would be to powerful otherwise. Considering locking out enfeebles didn't eliminate extreme soloing, this mentality should be scraped. All that has taken place is RDM soloing took a turn from kite/nuke to straight nuke/melee.

On top of this lack of any real impact on soloing (the root reasoning for enfeebles to be greatly resisted/immune) is the fact that not only can a lot of jobs solo effectively (DNC,PUP,DRG,BST,NIN,THF,BLM,SCH,SMN) most if not all can do so better (faster/safer) then a RDM can. From my own personal experience BLM solo's faster and just as safe as a RDM in a nuking role, and DNC absolutely smears anything a RDM hopes to do melee wise.

SE needs to stop not wanting to make RDM a god, they need knock down the walls they have built to house it, then tool it back from there. Otherwise all we are ever going to see are neat tricks like Temper, that mask the overlying issue, and that issue is SE doesn't know how to improve RDM, and that they are to afraid to really tweak it because the community backlash will be so great.

IMHO they need to do similar to what they did in the 2H update, break RDM to the point where it is a god, then tweak it so it fits comfortably. I mean christ look at BLU and how incredibly powerful it has become over the last several months, and look at DNC, two jobs that have had their shackles removed and buffed out the ass, with seemingly no end. Two jobs that also share the mantle of being a Hybrid.

[Kitkat]

trolololo pardon me while I show the inadequacies and deficiencies cause I could not read and basically just said the same thing you did, but also feel the need to insult your place to say anything in the matter.

I love trolls, they take the smallest thing and blow it out of proportion because they think it proves their point. Now you're just being childish. Has nothing to do with Epeen, but I guess for you it does even though it is a relevant point to the entire misinformed reasoning of your whole point of view. I already stated the very same thing you did, but at the same time you once again didn't note any of the similarities which you accuse others of doing.Moving on, nothing left to say to you.

The problem with some of the views or skim reading people seem to be taking out of this is they believe the spell is intended to make rdm front line in -everything- while moaning and groaning that it should have the ability to be cast on others.

My stand: Not what I meant as I stated that a noticeable gap still exists between rdm and jobs who rely specifically on melee accuracy. I don't believe the spell is intended to fit rdm up front, but it does add to a rdm's ability to do so if the situation allows for it (Between the line point: Not so a rdm can melee on HNM/High Tier NM). This isn't a black and white discussion, there are shades of grey where half the points some of you are making don't even apply. In fact it is like telling other jobs they should only do the one thing they are good at.

A whm should only heal because they get big robust cure/curaga/status removal spells and JA.

Blm should only nuke cause they get big nukes and blow things up.

It isn't that way at all unless the character is A.) A bot (gasp) or B.) A secondary character that the person playing only alt+tabs over to so they can do one or two things then hop back to their main character. Any other time a person will do more than just what the job is good at because it is either required or there is room for it.

Abyssea made it to where certain things will only be done until certain conditions are met, but with changes to Dynamis and the introduction of VWNM as well as changes to WoE it is clear SE doesn't want this to be the only thing available to do as they crawl towards 99cap. Not to mention with caps going from 80-90 as more abyssea zones were introduced the earlier ones became extremely easy to accomplish. Most nm's at the start of Abyssea that required decent sized groups now only require 1-2 people and only roughly 4-5 max if going for more than just one !! proc type.

What does all that mean to any of this? That the role of rdm will not drastically change to where you'll see them up front with other DD's, just the opposite. Rdm will still be performing their role as they always have, but in the easier situations I don't see it being out of place that a rdm pulls out a sword and uses melee oriented gear for a change up. There shouldn't be a problem with it especially when "traditional xp" or "tp burn" pt's don't exactly exist anymore. Even when a rdm is invited to one of these there is usually little need to slow/para/dia every mob cause it either dies in 3 seconds or it is being slept by blm, blu, or brd with the group.

Composure and augmented composure gear causes buffs to last longer meaning they don't need to be cast nearly as often as they once did. I can recall a number of times when this was asked for to make rotations less tedious/stressful back when traditional or tp burns were the mainstream of xp. This is as simple as a macro swap out, which isn't any different than any other swap out. The anti-melee nay sayers give every reason why this is bad, but still fails to see that the Rdm is not trying to be a traditional DD, they are trying to be a Hybrid-job capable of DD as it was originally marketed as and was in previous FF games. It was never better at a role than jobs that had that as the primary function of its job. This is just a change to the "Jack of all trades, master of none" build the job was meant to have.

Some state that Rdm's master role is Enfeebling, which I don't see changing in the near future either. Currently though, this role is not very true either as even as the "Master enfeebler" they can not always stick enfeebles and maintain good potency to the spell due to element affinity, resistance, or other such related problems. While SE has stated they plan to adjust this, it has yet to be seen or fully realized as they test additions they have already decided on/instated. That is where Temper and the discussion of it as a capable addition to the melee aspect of Rdm comes into play.

It is to address the concerns that people who enjoy this aspect of play when the situation allows for it can sufficiently add to DD as a hybrid, but not outshine any pure-blood DD while doing it. Hence the effect of the spell, the limited usability of the spell, and the overall low % rate of the spell. I still think it is a nice spell and with further alterations to be affected by enhancing skill tiers it has the capability of giving Rdm the nudge it needs to fit the hybrid role they were initially told the job could fill.

[Kenthedeviant]

Ok I generally don't post here, but there is a lot of misinformation in this thread (this might get lengthy).

2. Lack of weaponskills.

False RDM is privileged with 4 great weaponskills natively

Native
Evisceration- Probably the best non CDC damage weaponskill, and the go to weaponskill for most dagger wielding jobs. Great in abyssea, solid outside of abyssea.

CDC- Obviously great, the best sword WS in the game currently.

Death Blossom- Great Multihit sword WS, with a benefit to casting via the magic evade down bonus, excellent for use as /Mage applying extra damage between casting duties.

AE- A great AoE WS's that is directly boosted by our mage stats, RDM is the best in the game with this WS.

4 very strong and useful WS's all available natively, and all used very effectively, coincidently the listed WS's are also used by the other dagger and sword jobs.


(these forums are so sad.)

Um... Do you even know what the word "natively" MEANS? YOu're right, these forums are sad, especially with contributions like yours.

[Scuro]

There is a difference between debunking and merely responding. You're not providing any evidence as to why Red Mage should be more than what it is other than "But I want it to be a buffer! QQ" In fact, all you've shown is that you're fully aware it's not. I hope you realize that you just painted yourself to be a gigantic hypocrite.

"But the manifesto says..!"

Listen, Square had promised in the past that they were going to bring RDM to the front lines. Camate has already stated that they were looking into enhancing a Red Mages martial prowess. Or is that just a case of Square "appeasing the evil DD RDMs"?

The fact of the matter is you were lied to and you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

My proof is an actual Dev Post, yours is some misconstrued way of reading a post as FrankReynolds has pointed out. This job, will not see the light of a DD day, ever. I don't know why people don't see that, the output of the REAL DD classes is far surpassing of RDM, and unless RDM gets some native DD Traits, I don't expect much of anything to come out of RDM in terms of DD. Its just so disappointing that this Temper spell was a self cast only, such a waste for good double attack... At least a BLU would of made good use of it.

[Quetzacoatl]

Temper on BLU would be absolutely *** overpowered and you know it.

/slowclap

[Crimson_Slasher]

All i have to say is if they make rdm a line of spells/ja that push rdm to the delay cap while keeping enspells active, i will personally create a mule on odin to watch scuro defficate bricks and nerdrage all over port jeuno. As it stands to be, whomever has some numbers for CDC ws, if you can rig up a calculator for the ws, try popping in 22+ dex in rdm's favor. Dont recall where, but somewhere on these forums someone said that gain spells will rise sharply by 99, being between 22 and 27? (perhaps 30?!) of a stat boost. That is a substantial boost, and if it can/does push rdm to/above blu raw damages, with ws, then i can personally see rdm allowed to atleast hack into some mobs here or there in the near future just to fell them more quickly. Conversely im sure our lumpy faced galka friend will jump right back on here and through a series of muscle spasms, and countless face to keyboard impacts, will, throught some miracle, manage post some semi-cohierent post about how blu is invited for their damage aspects on nms. The sad reality is its blus like him who while doing sufficient, or even impressive damage, will just result in either feeding far too much tp, or being scolded, having a staff slapped in his hands, and told to "Shut up and proc or heal or GTFO, we need to kill this, not stroke your ego."

Back to what you said scuro when blu was shunned from bird/tp burn parties, know what we called them on my server? "Princess Blus" whom werent invited because frankly, the concept of conserving tp was unthinkable, and while you buttonmashed your damage macros, forced a responsible rdm to throw you yet another haste or refresh because they couldnt behave. And thats what blu has become, the spoiled princess. I'm sorry if you take offense to this kitkat, its my feelings toward blu, not you personally, you are atleast a reasonable person. But Blu is now more of a spoiled princess than ever. Blus outcry that their pretty dress isnt as pretty as other people's so they get lumped onto nigh every piece of gear imaginable, be it mage or light/support DD. They cry that their toys arent as new and enviable as other people's so theyre given new spells with such raw damage potential that its laughable anyone can claim that job balance was even considered upon their implementation between their explosive power, insignifigant cast time, and miniscule mp costs. The princess blus then bawl after all of this that their jewlery isnt as sparkly as others, so now their best and brightest spells come with job traits that frankly many jobs envy. So now with all of this, blu is on a powertrip, staring down from her throne, laughing at all the pesants, feeling as if God themselves has mandated them as the supreme being whom is burdened with the responsibility of educating the stupid masses. This causes arrogance, and the spoiled princess has become a spoiled queen, and frankly, nobody likes a tyrant, so if you do want to keep talking about rdm and its weakness, as well as any other job's weaknesses, dont be surprised if people start a wave to dethrone you, because even as a new dev team, they have shown little to no hesitation to nerf things if it has the potential of abusability, and frankly, i have a feeling the nerf bat is coming, and when it hits, other blus will cope, but you, you're going to fall hard. Hope you will enjoy when you are left in a gutter in your filthy dress, staff in hand, struggling to heal /whm just to cope with new content, because these same rdm players you loathe so much are likely to start watching you with daggers in their eyes, and when it comes down to you playing blu because of your pride, and they all switch to the important jobs, you watch as they lump you in with whm because you can hold a cure staff and can cast haste and self refresh, and turn you into the servant you wish other jobs to be to enhance your game vision.

Again, sorry if that felt hurtful Kitkat, but i know you will be able to cope or make a change, but Scuro is too prideful, and too egotistical to stop being a princess and start being a player whom wants to see all jobs recieve desired content. Course if they do keep going this way, every single melee oriented buff to rdm is going to be met with resistance, there is no doubt of this, and until we are gifted with them all, and it forms a complete picture, its just going to seem like wasted time to all the anti-melee rdm players.

[Kitkat]

Reasonable post shortened for quote purpose only

I in no way feel offended by this as it is true. Prior to 80 cap blu had mediocre dmg potential unless sub /thf when compared to a war, sam, or drk. Blu had no reason to be in a TP burn because they could solo imps to chain 5 relatively easy, and only really shined in things like Limbus or dynamis but little else in a group setting. Now blu is extremely powerful in physical or magical damage and will soon be able to fit a back up healer role even better due to white wind, and tank roles with barrier tusk. Saying blu hasn't gotten a good chunk of SE love like Sam did for so long isn't a long shot at all. I was rdm for years, and one of the first of a handful to take blu to 75 prior to AF even being introduced. The job use to be very inadequate, and even now it has the pitfall of feeding far too much TP on multi-strike spells.

Rdm though, was my first love until HNM had me permanently stuck on the job regardless of what else I had. Now I only bring it out if absolutely necessary, or to have fun on the job with a group of friends from my LS. Apples to oranges, rdm melee is no where near as bad as it once was and I welcome further adjustments that enhance this aspect of the rdm, but like any melee rdm I also know that when on rdm in certain situations I'll still be in the back line. Doesn't mean I still don't want something to enhance my melee when I can come up the the frontline.

Also, temper doesn't need to have the ability to cast on others when you look at just how much haste+da/ta they get from gear and traits already. Thf? 15% DA, 18%TA, 26%haste >.> like they really need 5~10% Occasionally attack twice. Blu? 13~20%da ~3%TA (after update ~8-13%ta option) and 26% haste, not to mention the ability to keep all that and add 5% crit dmg with a total of +13stp...yeah blu doesn't need temper. Especially with more DA gear options coming up from added content. Please go Mary Sue yourself somewhere else if you think differently.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Thankyou for your understanding, im admittedly a little biast against blus because similar to scuro's "Dislike of rdm due to rdm melee" i am a bit at a loss as to the blus that are still crying "MORE MORE MORE!!!" even after getting that heavy strike spell, which there are screenshots clocking in at 8k damage, which even for an empy wielding job, is a stretch, and in some cases, non empy ws jobs have to brew to hit that. I know blu has its flaws, as does every class, but point for point, blu has more going for them than many other jobs across the board. I dont wish to see blu turned into rdm as it once was, but with it easier to jump on a bandwaggon these days due to abyssea, i am beginning to think either the melee leads will see blu as healer #2, or just as likely, a bunch of bandwaggon players will flock to blu, just so they can get gear from events for their main jobs, as many jobs flocked to rdm to get merits pre-abyssea. And once again, i can tell from how you talk, that you will take a forced role, begrudgingly, but in stride, where Scuro will rage out and throw a <Temper> tantrum when he doesnt get his way. I can be known for my temper, especially on rdm melee forums, but i try to keep civil, until the insults start flying that is.