SE, Temper Activation Rate

[Kitkat]

So in otherwords you're contradicting yourself and the whole main point of your rant as it stands is that rdm shouldn't melee or have the choice to melee period. Right.

I'm rather disappointed that you think a rdm can even "step on a blu's toes." The comparative damage difference between a well geared blu and an equally well geared rdm still has a gap. You coming in here and fretting over a rdm gaining a spell that in essence gives him a POS Joyuese effect is laughable. Aside from tiara my rdm has nearly and identical melee tp setup, but has an overall lower delay difference due to having almace+mandau. In or out of abyssea this doesn't close the gap cause my blu still hits harder strike for strike and has a much better gear choice and support spells for CdC. Then on top of that blu can do self darkness, so as far as I'm concerned you have nothing to really say a rdm steps on blu's toes. Any blu played properly with the gear to back it up will leave a rdm in the dust in over all DD plain and simple.

The only thing I see you spouting in this thread is that Rdm has absolutely no right to melee and even as a blu primary myself I think your view is skewed. Maybe it is because your rdm is only 47, you don't understand when a rdm would want to melee, or more accurately knows when they can or can't melee. You're whole problem is that rdm want to have the choice to in the appropriate situation. Much like CdC rewrites the way a blu is played it rewrites the lolmeleerdm mentality since they too can do upwards for 5.5k with CdC. Have I ever peaked as high as my blu with cdc on rdm? No, but I can tell you this..it doesn't take me no 7min to kill something; more accurately it takes about as long as it does on blue if I only melee. The overall delay difference between my rdm and my blu due to sub weapon delay is only .3 difference, which once I get the last haste piece I'm missing becomes 3.8 delay compared to a 4.3 delay on blu. So that debunks your "hits faster" statement. About the only part that is true is the accuracy and slightly harder hits, but depending on mob that becomes null once you reach the pdif cap and fstr caps which in most cases you will in abyssea. This also is anulled because a rdm is using the same damage rating weapon meaning the only real defining differences come into play during NM fights (and even then only on the high-end tiers in abyssea) and higher peak dmg blu is capable of reaching...which also becomes anulled due to lower combined delay resulting in the rdm doing more WS over time.

So melee to melee, the gap is still there, but it isn't as large as you think it is. The blu however has more physical dmg options than the rdm does which keeps it far ahead. Thing about blu is, I'd rather not have one using spells on an nm cause they would feed too much tp to the mob. There you have it...go complain about some other job stepping on blu's toes cause rdm isn't even close. In fact your whole rant is more suitable if you replace all the "rdm" with "blu" considering current spells, abilities, and possible job traits they have currently not to mention are getting after the update comes along. Blu took the AOE dmg king title from blm, the sleepga king title from blm, the One-hit-wonder title from sam or any /thf DD (which doesn't exist anymore). Heck, with the gear sets I have for blu I can just about fit any role I need to after a simple adjustment to my spell list, passive traits, and if in abyssea, atma setup. Just about everything you've said can be easily thrown back at blu from not just rdm, but every job in the game cause of the spell additional effects and secondary modifiers+ftp mods. Seriously, stop kidding yourself. You're crusade against Rdm is unfounded and pointless when the primary job you play does exactly the same thing to not just -one- job, but to all of them.

[saevel]

So in otherwords you're contradicting yourself and the whole main point of your rant as it stands is that rdm shouldn't melee or have the choice to melee period. Right.

*Cough*

Many pages ago I stated that this is what their here for. It's why I'm quick to call out "troll" and ignore posters, I've seen all these debates years ago and I know exactly how they end. What will start off as a minor debate will escalate until the anti-melee-RDM crowd ends up frustrated and just does away with the decor and diplomacy and tells you want their really thinking. It's ALWAYS without fail "your not a DD, put your sword away, go the back and buff me, and make me a sammich while your at it".

You can't argue with them nor convince them because their already prejudiced into thinking anyone who "melees on RDM must be retarded and should be treated as such".

They don't play RDM, they don't like the idea of standing in the back and casting haste / refresh / cure on everyone, over and over again. They don't like the idea of being treated like someone's b1tch. Yet they'll happily force you into that roll and treat you that way. Most of them eventually gravitate to BLU, where they make absolute crap BLU's due to their inability to understand versatility (ohh lookz at mez I gotz a sword so I should only DD). Some of them even get to the point were they refuse to set healing, refresh, haste or utility spells, with the reasoning being "it lowers my DD potential, the RDM should be doing that for me instead". There were actual arguments about Magic Fruit vs more +STR spells.

So yeah, I'm jaded against this group but only because I've seen it all before and already know every argument their going to make, and every response to those arguments, and every response they'll make to our responses. My advice to the pro-melee-RDM people is to add the trolls to your ignore list and call it a day. The Dev's are on our side, SE wants RDM to have more melee utility. Their adding us to more melee gear, their giving us melee orientated self buffs (Temper / Gain-STR/DEX) and I'm happy for it. Now they need to give us stat-based enfeebled (attack down, defense down, magic defense down, ect..) and a super Regen spell and we'll be set.

[Scuro]

And ya I suppose you are right, this is a bit of a derail, but I mean... what is there really to say about Temper, its a self-cast spell, its a 5% proc, which either gets better with skill and 5% is a minimum, or its 5% is the best. It still doesn't proc enough to be amazing, and with out a Joytoy, its less then having a joy toy, and with a joy toy, its a +1.

/slow clap

It still won't get the class to be a frontline, yet I can understand that it is cool for solo play. Yet the problem isn't RDM's ability to DD solo, the problem is, its not a desirable job.... for anything except maybe void watch.

So for now sine I've pretty much established my point and reasons I'm going to bow out for another like 10 posts and see if anything has changed and maybe come back if I feel the desire, or just give up on the RDM community lol.

@post before this one:
The reason why the argument hasn't changed is because DD RDM hasn't changed, but has gotten worse due to its gear remaining at 75 best. I'm not in a prejudice, a prejudice is an illogical resentment, the resentment is perfectly logical, other jobs DD better, RDM is a better back line then a DD hands down, and has the gear to show for it, thus it gets back lined as the whole community has done with the class. No prejudice there, just dealing with fact lol. And so long as BLU exist, DD RDM is a solo role that won't see the light of a party day. And on that note! Ta-ta!

[FrankReynolds]

You guys can pop that BS all day, but the fact is that when you are on the front line poking and taking damage, you are not curing, hasting, slowing, paralyzing, blinding, diaing, addling, poisoning, refreshing etc. like you are supposed to be. Hell if you cast any of that shit you completely lose all dd efficiency and purpose on the front line due to constant casting. and thats not even taking into account that you are casting in swords now. Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would. Quit being childish and trying to act like everyone needs to be doing that crap.

[Rayik]

You guys can pop that BS all day, but the fact is that when you are on the front line poking and taking damage, you are not curing, hasting, slowing, paralyzing, blinding, diaing, addling, poisoning, refreshing etc. like you are supposed to be. Hell if you cast any of that shit you completely lose all dd efficiency and purpose on the front line due to constant casting. and thats not even taking into account that you are casting in swords now. Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would. Quit being childish and trying to act like everyone needs to be doing that crap.

SE has already made a stance that they are bulking up our melee. Talk about "give it up" and "acting childish." It's not a theory anymore, RDM melee is a play style preference for many Red Mages. If the numbers were so small and niche as you try to paint "us" out to be, there would be no melee boost. Period. The fact that they went as far as to give us gear, self-only spells, JA's, etc, should be more than enough for you mage-only fascists to take your heads out of your rears and leave the rest of us alone. It's a preference for crying out loud. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Some of us find RDM melee fun. Wow, let's fight about it.

Nobody is taking your staff away from you.

And really, I've been on the front lines melee'ing, curing, hasting, refreshing, dia'ing all day, just fine. Just because you put zero effort into something, if you don't lift a finger to make something out of it, of course it's going to be worthless to you.

[cidbahamut]

Sorry Ray, but I gotta pick your post apart and reel you back in before you go over the deep end.

SE has already made a stance that they are bulking up our melee. Talk about "give it up" and "acting childish."

Valid

It's not a theory anymore, RDM melee is a play style preference for many Red Mages. If the numbers were so small and niche as you try to paint "us" out to be, there would be no melee boost. Period.

I challenge you(or the mage enthusiasts) to present evidence of these numbers. It's all hearsay and personal experiences with nothing substantive that we can point to and say "here is the exact divide within the community and X is clearly more popular than Y across all servers". Until we have that data, that argument cannot be made.

The fact that they went as far as to give us gear, self-only spells, JA's, etc, should be more than enough for you mage-only fascists to take your heads out of your rears and leave the rest of us alone. It's a preference for crying out loud. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Uncalled for.

Preference is a personal choice, it carries no weight of correctness or superiority or even viability. Someone could have a preference for wielding staves on Paladin but that doesn't mean that preference should be cultivated at the expense of development man-hours.

Asking people to stop heckling you, that I'm ok with. There's too much resentment and bitterness surrounding these discussions.

Some of us find RDM melee fun. Wow, let's fight about it.

Yes let's. On other forums this might be acceptable, but here we know the devs are listening and both camps have good reason to fear the other side getting the dev's ear because then the job will evolve with their input influencing the devs.

Nobody is taking your staff away from you.

No, but with the limited man-hours of a reduced development staff working on an old game, there is the very real fear of neglect, which is just as crippling.

And really, I've been on the front lines melee'ing, curing, hasting, refreshing, dia'ing all day, just fine. Just because you put zero effort into something, if you don't lift a finger to make something out of it, of course it's going to be worthless to you.

The problem is that aside from damage, Red Mage doesn't add much by being on the front lines and they can already add that damage in the form of nukes. Additionally to melee competently you have to give up a large chunk of inventory. Nukes provide respectable damage the same as melee, but do not suffer from the opportunity cost since a lot of the gear for nuking also functions for the rest of what Red Mage is already providing, thus offering more flexibility in gearing. The more flexibility you have in your gear, the more you can accomplish while on Red Mage.

[Hyrist]

Sorry Ray, but I gotta pick your post apart and reel you back in before you go over the deep end.

Just be aware other people are around to do the same courtesy to you, cid. You are just as prone to heated debate an insults as the rest of us.

Yes let's. On other forums this might be acceptable, but here we know the devs are listening and both camps have good reason to fear the other side getting the dev's ear because then the job will evolve with their input influencing the devs.

An what is bad about further developing an otherwise neglected aspect of the job? If anything I hope it is a sign that they won't forget their more casual base when developing the new endgame. Right now, Voidwatch doesn't have a broad appeal, not nearly when compared to how effective Abyssea was. (Though admitted, Abyssea was wide in scope.)

Red Mage has always been conceptually a hybrid job with more leanings towards it's magic side. And you're arguing against the further development of it, why? Because you're afraid it will take the job in an undesired direction when the whole of endgame itself is still mostly an unknown? As you've acknowledged, Melee is part of the job that will not go away. The question I pose to you is, why not develop it further and give it a specific role in which it is acceptable by the community?

As you said, the development eyes are here, but more importantly, the eyes of the community at large are directed this way as well. There's an opportunity here to carve a niche for Red Mage's martial side that will stem the arguments once an for all, and help develop a proper course for feedback in development.

The debate shouldn't be 'No don't give RDM any melee updates.' or 'It's a waste of development time.' It should be an argument of the whens and hows. And then progress into developments that feed those whens.

The biggest goal for most melee enthusiasts is that there is an acceptable 'role' for frontline within groups. Not ALL groups, mind you, but a good deal more than what's being seen as acceptable on the forums at least. Gameplay is a different story and people are far more lenient there, in my experience.

No, but with the limited man-hours of a reduced development staff working on an old game, there is the very real fear of neglect, which is just as crippling.

This argument would hold weight, ANY weight at all if it didn't come into testing at the exact same time as Spontaneity. If anything what this argues is a lack(or loss) of patience. If there is any doubt that RDM is going to come into its own in terms of being caster, it is more due to the lack of overall faith in Square Enix as a company to fill the bill, and has little to nothing to do with the Melee debate in general.

Tacking it into the debate itself is a straw-man argument. There is nothing preventing the development of both aspects of the job, or even intertwining the two, which would be my preference.

The problem is that aside from damage, Red Mage doesn't add much by being on the front lines and they can already add that damage in the form of nukes. Additionally to melee competently you have to give up a large chunk of inventory. Nukes provide respectable damage the same as melee, but do not suffer from the opportunity cost since a lot of the gear for nuking also functions for the rest of what Red Mage is already providing, thus offering more flexibility in gearing. The more flexibility you have in your gear, the more you can accomplish while on Red Mage.

Again, I disagree. If you're separating Potency from Accuracy in your enfeebles, Nuking actually costs you a decent amount in possible gear pieces, especially in accessory slots. Right now RDM has a poor representation of INT base enfeebles to justify the use of an INT based gear set, and only gear it mainly to accompany Nuking as well. However M.Atk serves no other purpose than nuking itself (Except for magic based WSes, which is more an argument for fixing magical WSes to matter more), and maxing out said stat can cost a good amount of gear slots on its own. Granted, not as much as TP and WS set.

But here in lies the difference between nuking and Melee. While it is currently more gear intensive, it is also more sustainable than Nuking everywhere outside Abyssea. Nuking is still a large MP investment, even with Refresh II and 6+ Refresh in idle gear. Nuking is also TIME intensive. Nothing prevents you from interrupting your melee to toss out a sudden cure, refresh a Debuff, or in the super-rare cases you're meleeing /drk or /blm, toss out a much needed stun (suppose you can do that /dnc too with violent flourish.) However, if you're caught casting a nuke when you're in need for this, the best you can do is take a knee and hope you can stand back up enough to cast in time to cure.

In situations in which you can casually contribute damage without substantial risk, Melee typically wins out over nuking. The issue is of course the risk involved, not really the gear involved at this point, though RDM stands to benefit from getting more Hybrid or attack orientated gear, that's for sure.

I'd like to see a more varied endgame, honestly. Something that encourages more hybrid play up until a boss fight. This way RDM can start on in swinging, then swap out gear to the mog sack/satchel real quick to pull out the needed mage gear for bosses, or even separate the two instances but keep them related (currency earned in a fodder run goes to costs of boss pops for a boss run.) That way we're tackeling more in depth problems than simply "Oh hey this monsters waaay too hard for light damage jobs to be swinging at it."

For Example:
I LIKE the New Dynamis stagger system, honestly. Playing RDM/DNC (If I'm not /sch for status removals or /blm for crowd control) is amazing to work on procs. Having more people in the thick of things for JA and WS procs actually helps, and the fact that I'm a lower damage scale actually means that when heavier DD's hold off, I can work the monster up to try to get in the highly desired "!!".

If the future of endgame works more along those lines I'd be more happy in using both aspects of my Job. But I've no illusions about developing our support and enfeeble aspects further for Bosses. I'm fine with that concept. But there's no need to get in a holler about developing the melee side, especially if endgame tends to be more varied, which I sincerely hope it does.

[cidbahamut]

Just be aware other people are around to do the same courtesy to you, cid. You are just as prone to heated debate an insults as the rest of us.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

If anything I hope it is a sign that they won't forget their more casual base when developing the new endgame.

Since when do you design endgame content with casual players in mind?

[Swords]

Good Lord, not this again... It drives me crazy to think people are so quick to shoot down the original advertised Archtype, but seem to be married to the month old Manifesto. It's not that I don't welcome improvements in any aspect of RDM, Lord knows we've hardly gotten anything since the original redesign, but we know SE is notorious for saying one thing and doing the opposite yet many seem to be sold that description in the Manifesto is absolute.

Besides, for all we know SE is just prepping for the 99 update, and being we cannot do more than speculate on what they tell us. We cannot really say whats in store for RDM, or what SE is planning to do with the game in general.

Note: Not posting at anyone in particular but people have been throwing around the Manifesto alot lately.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You go on about debuffs but even where RDM is concerned it's outdated there two. NIN can do the debuffs more or less to the same level as RDM, and in some cases purchased spells for NIN are as potenct as RDM's merits.

What, none of Nin's debuffs are better than Rdm's merit spells, only if you're comparing Kurayami: Ni to Blind 1 or Aisha to Bio 2.