SE, Temper Activation Rate

[Scuro]

To Prove that you are reiterating the same shit I'm saying, and that SCH, as it stands, is a better buffer then RDM, allow me to quote myself:

This spell is just dissapointing, the focus now for RDM is to be a buffer/debuffer class, and then they give it a spell like this.... One in which it only affects the individual, and can not be accessioned nor given out to any other party member. If you want to play a true hybrid class, play BLU, even the deciription decribes it as a hybrid job. SE needs to stop trying to appease people in this class and make it what its supposed to be, or else it still will be garbage and rarely ever used. I'm sorry, but I'll pick a BLU over a RDM in DD any day of the week, and I would take a SCH over a RDM in terms of buffing any day as well.

They need to fix this where I want a RDM to buff and debuff, not just roll my eyes and laugh. As it stands, the only RDMs that will use Temper, are ones that solo. No party nor anything will want a RDM to DD, even if they have this increase of double attack, I mean hell did a Joytoy get people into the frontline in parties? Hell no, do you think a spell that increases it will do it now?.... Not even the same sport of likely. I agree with Shiyo, the focus needs to be buffs and debuffs, or else the class will not be taken seriously, and will be mediocre. The debuffs available are nice, but not really amazing especially on Abyssea NMs that have just nasty resists on certain debuffs. And SCH just has better buffs (if fully merrited) then a RDM, no contest, and thats how it shouldn't be.

I can promise you right now, the only RDM that is going to use this spell, is a solo RDM playing with content that is not voidwatch nor abyssea. I'm pretty sure any RDM that uses this spell and runs up to the front thinking this gives them any right in a frontline position, will see a kick from party and a swift breaking of his/her shell. This spell had potential to be a desirable buff and give way to the ability of RDMs able to buff the hell out of players and make them monsters, yet now. That it only affects them, worthless.

/slowclap

waita go SE

Benthic Typhoon, please check it, a spell in which just about every Physical BLU has equipped does 10% Physical and Magical damage down, while your Dia III does 15%. Thats great and all, but Why would I NEED a RDM? sure that 5% sounds nice, but why sacrifice things that would further benefit the group, just so I have have an additional 10% physical down and not 10% Magical down to benefit my nukers? And you are right with the middle section of this, you are wanted for those said buffs and debuffs. What your not wanted there for is DD. Every RDM's argument is that they have better acc and can parse better then a BLU in terms of sword DPS..... Thats great.... Too bad that really isn't what a BLU purely does in terms of damage (unless your rockin an almace). I had a RDM brag to me that he was hitting more accurately then I was by 15%, to which I simply replied "ya but the difference is it takes me 2 minutes to kill a mob and it takes you DD'n for 7 to kill one."

There is a reason why BLU was introduced to this game, it was to provide DD RDMs the ability to play a true DD hybrid mage class that was meant to be frontlined. You are right that SCH is a better mage hybrid as it stands then a RDM, however, I feel a RDM should be a better buffer then a SCH, and as it stands, it is not. So why waste time, effort, and consideration on a class that will not DD unless it starts to get DD JA's and actual DD gear that makes it competitive with other DD classes. When they should be establishing the class as the buffer and debuffer class that it is. To exceed at benefitting the party by killing mobs faster, rather then dragging out fights because you think your sword is going to make a big difference in the grand scheme of a party. Whenever a DD RDM tells me that he DD's to "benefit the party" I roll my eyes, because it is pure selfishness as to why they do it. A BLU however benefits a party, hell I open just about every fight with a Benthic Typhoon so I can help the mages and the DD's at the same time.

As it stands, the only reason a RDM is needed for anything, is because VoidWatch requires just about every job in the game, outside of that, the class is practically lack luster. Its not desired, and woopdie doo, Refresh II, why take a class that really is only desired for 1 buff, when practically most mages these days /RDM if they really need the MP? The job needs more buffs for me to say "we need a RDM!" and thats the thing RDMs should be going for, buffs that make it desirable and make SCHs take a back seat. Not trying to compete with BLU or get more mediocre DD skills (Temper lol, so basically ever DD RDM's Joyeuse just got a +1, and I mean a joy toy was seriously why everybody invited RDM to be a DD RDM right!?.... Wrong, even with double attack the job still wasn't desired, so why would it be now? The problem isn't how many times you can hit, or how accurate you hit, the problem is that jobs hit faster, and more then a RDM, harder then a RDM, and actually have traits to enhance them as a DD class. So why compete in a fight your already loosing, when you could compete in a fight that you were meant to win?)

yes obviously RDM is not a good buffer, and that is why things like Temper should have been focused on a party rather then just a self cast that cannot be accesioned.... I'm not saying the buffs you have now make you a great buffer class, obviously not, but what they could introduce would be fantastic, magic attack boost spell, quick magic spell, etc. I mean the list can be endless, and yes I am one of those that is sticking to the manifesto, and feel that RDMs should receive great buffs and debuffs. SE needs to stop wasting its time with DD, (and hell with some of the buffs, like temper, which should of been at least accesionable, it can still boost RDM DD enough to keep the DD RDM quiet) and focus on what it had established as a focus for the class, buffing, and debuffing for the better good of a party.

/applaud
Since I've posted on this thread, I've just about said what you said, in terms of debating why RDM as it stands is NOT a Buffer class, yet how we differ is that I follow what the manifesto SAYS and think of how this class can be a BETTER BUFFER. I'm glad you're on my level of understanding of the competition of other classes, I just wish you would realize you are saying the same things I HAVE BEEN SAYING!

Btw my RDM is 47, and could I play such a job? Yes, but do I want to take it further.... No, because I bare resentment to RDM because of the DD RDMs trying to step on BLU's toes

[Daniel_Hatcher]

not to be rude, but you do seem to lack the knowledge of what a RDM is, it's not a traditional Mage just like BLU is not. BLM, WHM and SCH are the mages that wield staves and stay back.

Just because the player-base has made RDM a job that wields Staves and stays out of combat does NOT mean that's what a RDM is, Though I see it'd be easier banging my head against a brick wall in your case. How about instead of keep coming in these threads telling the posters how they're doing it wrong, you create a separate thread on the RDM forum for people that are your type of RDM and don't bother opening a thread for people that want to use the job as actually advertised.

You and other posters have already taken this topic completely off what it was in the beginning.

[Kitkat]

So in otherwords you're contradicting yourself and the whole main point of your rant as it stands is that rdm shouldn't melee or have the choice to melee period. Right.

I'm rather disappointed that you think a rdm can even "step on a blu's toes." The comparative damage difference between a well geared blu and an equally well geared rdm still has a gap. You coming in here and fretting over a rdm gaining a spell that in essence gives him a POS Joyuese effect is laughable. Aside from tiara my rdm has nearly and identical melee tp setup, but has an overall lower delay difference due to having almace+mandau. In or out of abyssea this doesn't close the gap cause my blu still hits harder strike for strike and has a much better gear choice and support spells for CdC. Then on top of that blu can do self darkness, so as far as I'm concerned you have nothing to really say a rdm steps on blu's toes. Any blu played properly with the gear to back it up will leave a rdm in the dust in over all DD plain and simple.

The only thing I see you spouting in this thread is that Rdm has absolutely no right to melee and even as a blu primary myself I think your view is skewed. Maybe it is because your rdm is only 47, you don't understand when a rdm would want to melee, or more accurately knows when they can or can't melee. You're whole problem is that rdm want to have the choice to in the appropriate situation. Much like CdC rewrites the way a blu is played it rewrites the lolmeleerdm mentality since they too can do upwards for 5.5k with CdC. Have I ever peaked as high as my blu with cdc on rdm? No, but I can tell you this..it doesn't take me no 7min to kill something; more accurately it takes about as long as it does on blue if I only melee. The overall delay difference between my rdm and my blu due to sub weapon delay is only .3 difference, which once I get the last haste piece I'm missing becomes 3.8 delay compared to a 4.3 delay on blu. So that debunks your "hits faster" statement. About the only part that is true is the accuracy and slightly harder hits, but depending on mob that becomes null once you reach the pdif cap and fstr caps which in most cases you will in abyssea. This also is anulled because a rdm is using the same damage rating weapon meaning the only real defining differences come into play during NM fights (and even then only on the high-end tiers in abyssea) and higher peak dmg blu is capable of reaching...which also becomes anulled due to lower combined delay resulting in the rdm doing more WS over time.

So melee to melee, the gap is still there, but it isn't as large as you think it is. The blu however has more physical dmg options than the rdm does which keeps it far ahead. Thing about blu is, I'd rather not have one using spells on an nm cause they would feed too much tp to the mob. There you have it...go complain about some other job stepping on blu's toes cause rdm isn't even close. In fact your whole rant is more suitable if you replace all the "rdm" with "blu" considering current spells, abilities, and possible job traits they have currently not to mention are getting after the update comes along. Blu took the AOE dmg king title from blm, the sleepga king title from blm, the One-hit-wonder title from sam or any /thf DD (which doesn't exist anymore). Heck, with the gear sets I have for blu I can just about fit any role I need to after a simple adjustment to my spell list, passive traits, and if in abyssea, atma setup. Just about everything you've said can be easily thrown back at blu from not just rdm, but every job in the game cause of the spell additional effects and secondary modifiers+ftp mods. Seriously, stop kidding yourself. You're crusade against Rdm is unfounded and pointless when the primary job you play does exactly the same thing to not just -one- job, but to all of them.

[Economizer]

not to be rude, but you do seem to lack the knowledge of what a RDM is, it's not a traditional Mage just like BLU is not. BLM, WHM and SCH are the mages that wield staves and stay back.

Please don't lump White Mages with Black Mages and Scholars.

[Supersun]

Btw my RDM is 47, and could I play such a job? Yes, but do I want to take it further.... No, because I bare resentment to RDM because of the DD RDMs trying to step on BLU's toes

You need anymore proof that people are posting in this thread with no intention to play the job?

I mean you resent "DD Rdms" because they are trying to step on Blu's toes so your solution is to push Rdm onto Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Sch? Yeah,...real objective decision there.

I've said it before. Enfeebling for bosses, melee for fodder. That's what I think Red mage should become

To be honest, Blue Mage needs its toes smashed. It's just currently a gigantic role hog. Second best healer, tied for best crowd control, best offensive enfeebler, best AoE nuker, hell, best nuker period (though your damage is in physical form), best stunner by far against most things.

If half of you weren't trying to be a War-1 you'd realize how laughable it is for Blue Mage of all things to ridicule any other job of stepping on their toes.

If anything I think it's fear. Because you realize that unless something big happens between 96-99 everyone is going begin to realize that Blus make some of the best sammiches.

Also...

...did you just /applaud yourself?

[Scuro]

not to be rude, but you do seem to lack the knowledge of what a RDM is, it's not a traditional Mage just like BLU is not. BLM, WHM and SCH are the mages that wield staves and stay back.

How about instead of keep coming in these threads telling the posters how they're doing it wrong, you create a separate thread on the RDM forum for people that are your type of RDM and don't bother opening a thread for people that want to use the job as actually advertised.

If you are going to say the way the job is advertised is "The Jack of All Trades" I'm going to punch a baby.... hard... I swear you RDMs love that statement that is about as outdated as NIN being a ranged DD.... YAY! Sure it was the original premiss, but with how the community is, it sure AS HELL Ain't now! And I'm not really derailing this topic, its those that want to fight me about why I think this is a wasted spell, because its for DD RDMs, and not for RDMs that actually want to be USEFUL and buff their party members or at least have Temper be accessional. Not to mention the activation rate is already garbage anyway as I've addressed in my prior red highlighted post. Its you RDMs that want to fight me that are leading to the derails, I'm just simply an object that doesn't compromise.

RDM used to be in the same category as a BLU, as a mediocre DD Mage that was not wanted in parties (please reference 75, and bird parties, when BLU was about laughed out of every party, and I personally had to do pages, campaign, and imps solo just to get merits) yet now we are in an entire class of our own, its almost an insult to group the two together when referring to DD prowess. SCH is more in the same ball park as RDM, but the reason why people do not try to group the two together is because well, SCH obviously kicks the sh*t out of RDM. THe only thing its got up on any job is debuffs.

I'm so dissapointed you think that RDM isn't a DD, because I has like the uber weapons and stuff, and in a rock fight, I bring a rocket launcher. I'm an exclusion to the discussion because I use a weapon that doesn't require any skills or anything from the job other then attack, stats, and gear. My CDC hits so hard that god kills a kitten somewhere, and although my DD RDM is still not better then my BLU in DD, I still think it should be a DD. Because this game cherishes mediocre jobs that play roles within the grand scheme of things, mediocre. I mean BLU has gear that boosts it greater then what any RDM can achieve by 5%, it hits harder, its more accurate now then it was before, outside of almace it has the best DD WS with a sword, and it has front line physical spells that make a mockery of simple TP'n with a sword, but f*ck that noise, that doesn't mean a RDM can't DD! It means it should!

yes I realize your E-peen is big, thank you, yet in a comparison BLU will always win out in DD because it was MEANT TO, AND DESIGNED TO. Which is why our dd capabilities, and our spells designed the job to beat RDM in DD, EVERYTIME. And hoenstly, as far as I'm concerned it has no right, I mean what a job does alone and on its own time, sure, have a ball, and more power to ya. Yet it will be a cold day in hell when I let a RDM DD with me, my resentment to RDM dates far back, and got worse with BLU. When the class was being grouped with DD RDMs, and being told that we were just as useful. Certain qualities of RDM that made the job better at solo'n as a DD Mage then we were because of our survivability.

It pissed me off, and now, I'm like this, I stomp on the idea of DD RDM whenever I can, because I resent it that much. It may not even be reasonable, but I hate DD RDM. Do I think it should not exist? Of course not, do I think it should only exist in solo? YES.

You need anymore proof that people are posting in this thread with no intention to play the job?

I mean you resent "DD Rdms" because they are trying to step on Blu's toes so your solution is to push Rdm onto Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Sch? Yeah,...real objective decision there.

I've said it before. Enfeebling for bosses, melee for fodder. That's what I think Red mage should become

To be honest, Blue Mage needs its toes smashed. It's just currently a gigantic role hog. Second best healer, tied for best crowd control, best offensive enfeebler, best AoE nuker, hell, best nuker period (though your damage is in physical form), best stunner by far against most things.

If half of you weren't trying to be a War-1 you'd realize how laughable it is for Blue Mage of all things to ridicule any other job of stepping on their toes.

If anything I think it's fear. Because you realize that unless something big happens between 96-99 everyone is going begin to realize that Blus make some of the best sammiches.

Also...

...did you just /applaud yourself?

If showing that I know wtf i'm talking about with this job, and that my understanding of DD mages, and of the job and how it operates is a 90, give me a few days and I'll have it enough to take my words more valuable. I've had the job up this high for a long time, and pretty much at 50 the job doesn't change, you still protect, shell, haste, and refresh. Yet now its a different beast in terms of its enfeebles and such, yet still, I hardly think its all that different. Also it wasn't my decision to group them together, check the manifesto, that was SE's decision, idk why, but hell I'm going to back it, I think its a good decision.... NO idea how they will get RDM to be better then the other classes (and oh my christ, whenever I hear someone establish that SMN's feet will be stepped on as a buffer, I about piss my pants... Ya cuz I'm sure some SMN's picked up the job so that they could be party buffers.... LOL, no SMNs play the class to be a DD class and pet tank, the buffs are simply a bonus, its when they were a healer only job that they got pissed, and I'm pretty sure SMN really doesn't care that much, take it from someone that plays it, used to be in a SMN only LS, and whose cousin plays it.

BLU has been smashed for a LONG TIME, take it from someone who played this class since introduction, I absolutely loved this job, and for the firest few months it was "ZOMGS! INVITE THE BLUEZ!" and BLU was loved, yet as time passed people realized that BLU was OK at everything, but not GREAT, and this made us mediocre, and eventually useless. Many of us, including myself had to scrounge for campaign battles, do pages, or solo imps, the only way we got parties was if we:
A. Made them ourselves and lied about what job we were coming as.
B. Had a friend/lsmate that made the party.
C. It was that late in the night, nobody is on, and a party really doesn't want to disband.
That was the life of a BLU, we were mediocre, not desired, and left to ourselves for years. It wasn't until Abyssea that we finally were desired and adored for what we do, and honestly if it weren't for our exclusive yellow procs, we would of probably still been on the fence of mediocrity. Yet the spells we received, traits, just set us ahead as a great hybrid class by leaps and bounds, now when I seek on my BLU, I get party invites in 5 mins. Back when you were about as desired as a DRK or DRG back in the old days before ToAU and when DRG 2hr was summon Wyvren.

At this point, BLU is at a point of no return, its progressed so much over this last year that even if things remain the same at 99, this class will be just fine in the long run. i'll still be a rediculous TP DD, my DD spells will still be fantastic, my stunning will be amazing, especially now with Sudden Lunge, my nukes will still be phenomenal and will only improve. And I about LOL'd when you said that we were the best offensive enfeebler. Most of our enfeebles are kinda meh, but I suppose since we are the only class that DD's and enfeebles, it makes sense, yet as one can see in the BLU forums, we want improved enfeebs. At this point, I'm quite comfortable with where BLU is at, and no matter what they do to RDM, I'll crush it in output with my BLU, no matter what.

And no I did not applaud myself, I applauded the fact that he was able to address what I had JUST SAID. I thought it was pretty self explanatory by what I had said just below the /applaud lol.

[saevel]

So in otherwords you're contradicting yourself and the whole main point of your rant as it stands is that rdm shouldn't melee or have the choice to melee period. Right.

*Cough*

Many pages ago I stated that this is what their here for. It's why I'm quick to call out "troll" and ignore posters, I've seen all these debates years ago and I know exactly how they end. What will start off as a minor debate will escalate until the anti-melee-RDM crowd ends up frustrated and just does away with the decor and diplomacy and tells you want their really thinking. It's ALWAYS without fail "your not a DD, put your sword away, go the back and buff me, and make me a sammich while your at it".

You can't argue with them nor convince them because their already prejudiced into thinking anyone who "melees on RDM must be retarded and should be treated as such".

They don't play RDM, they don't like the idea of standing in the back and casting haste / refresh / cure on everyone, over and over again. They don't like the idea of being treated like someone's b1tch. Yet they'll happily force you into that roll and treat you that way. Most of them eventually gravitate to BLU, where they make absolute crap BLU's due to their inability to understand versatility (ohh lookz at mez I gotz a sword so I should only DD). Some of them even get to the point were they refuse to set healing, refresh, haste or utility spells, with the reasoning being "it lowers my DD potential, the RDM should be doing that for me instead". There were actual arguments about Magic Fruit vs more +STR spells.

So yeah, I'm jaded against this group but only because I've seen it all before and already know every argument their going to make, and every response to those arguments, and every response they'll make to our responses. My advice to the pro-melee-RDM people is to add the trolls to your ignore list and call it a day. The Dev's are on our side, SE wants RDM to have more melee utility. Their adding us to more melee gear, their giving us melee orientated self buffs (Temper / Gain-STR/DEX) and I'm happy for it. Now they need to give us stat-based enfeebled (attack down, defense down, magic defense down, ect..) and a super Regen spell and we'll be set.

[Scuro]

And ya I suppose you are right, this is a bit of a derail, but I mean... what is there really to say about Temper, its a self-cast spell, its a 5% proc, which either gets better with skill and 5% is a minimum, or its 5% is the best. It still doesn't proc enough to be amazing, and with out a Joytoy, its less then having a joy toy, and with a joy toy, its a +1.

/slow clap

It still won't get the class to be a frontline, yet I can understand that it is cool for solo play. Yet the problem isn't RDM's ability to DD solo, the problem is, its not a desirable job.... for anything except maybe void watch.

So for now sine I've pretty much established my point and reasons I'm going to bow out for another like 10 posts and see if anything has changed and maybe come back if I feel the desire, or just give up on the RDM community lol.

@post before this one:
The reason why the argument hasn't changed is because DD RDM hasn't changed, but has gotten worse due to its gear remaining at 75 best. I'm not in a prejudice, a prejudice is an illogical resentment, the resentment is perfectly logical, other jobs DD better, RDM is a better back line then a DD hands down, and has the gear to show for it, thus it gets back lined as the whole community has done with the class. No prejudice there, just dealing with fact lol. And so long as BLU exist, DD RDM is a solo role that won't see the light of a party day. And on that note! Ta-ta!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If you are going to say the way the job is advertised is "The Jack of All Trades" I'm going to punch a baby.... hard... I swear you RDMs love that statement that is about as outdated as NIN being a ranged DD.... YAY! Sure it was the original premiss, but with how the community is, it sure AS HELL Ain't now! And I'm not really derailing this topic, its those that want to fight me about why I think this is a wasted spell, because its for DD RDMs, and not for RDMs that actually want to be USEFUL and buff their party members or at least have Temper be accessional. Not to mention the activation rate is already garbage anyway as I've addressed in my prior red highlighted post. Its you RDMs that want to fight me that are leading to the derails, I'm just simply an object that doesn't compromise.

RDM used to be in the same category as a BLU, as a mediocre DD Mage that was not wanted in parties (please reference 75, and bird parties, when BLU was about laughed out of every party, and I personally had to do pages, campaign, and imps solo just to get merits) yet now we are in an entire class of our own, its almost an insult to group the two together when referring to DD prowess. SCH is more in the same ball park as RDM, but the reason why people do not try to group the two together is because well, SCH obviously kicks the sh*t out of RDM. THe only thing its got up on any job is debuffs.

And RDM being an Enhancer is as outdated as that. RDM is not now, nor has it been an Enhancer. It had few single-target spells, that DOESN'T make it an enhancer it makes it capable of enhancing. Big difference. RDM is and forever will be the ultimate self-enhancer big difference. BLU can do that, will you say that's an enhancer now, or even a curer since it can cure.

BLU is more RDM than SCH whether you want it to be or not, it is. Simple fact! SCH is a mage, that is all it is, whether you like it as long as RDM has a B rank in Sword and Dagger, and SE always picture them wielding a sword/dagger it will always be a melee mage. Is it used as one for the most part? No, of course not.

You go on about debuffs but even where RDM is concerned it's outdated there two. NIN can do the debuffs more or less to the same level as RDM, and in some cases purchased spells for NIN are as potenct as RDM's merits. As it stands RDM has no place, just like BLU used too.

Only difference is, you levelled BLU so you complain about what you want for BLU. I levelled RDM and I'll complain what I want for RDM, as for staying on topic one of your first posts was how this spell should have been given to BLU that doesn't help the subject of the topic so you originally only came in with the only intention to get RDM's backs up, which you are still trying to do now.

Your RDM is only subjob level, so you truly have no right to even state you have any idea on what a RDM is. You know what the player-base have made it which is a mediocre WHM, this will never be what RDM should be not now, not ever.

[FrankReynolds]

You guys can pop that BS all day, but the fact is that when you are on the front line poking and taking damage, you are not curing, hasting, slowing, paralyzing, blinding, diaing, addling, poisoning, refreshing etc. like you are supposed to be. Hell if you cast any of that shit you completely lose all dd efficiency and purpose on the front line due to constant casting. and thats not even taking into account that you are casting in swords now. Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would. Quit being childish and trying to act like everyone needs to be doing that crap.