SE, Temper Activation Rate

[Crimson_Slasher]

While that may be true at times, more often than not it comes down to lack of discouraging the bluemage from doing those exact things. Additionally many rdms (myself included) seem to view the game as being a web of tree-chart categories. This is partly having to do with armor sets and the like being lumped to certain jobs, in example, the mage classes (See teal set) the support damage classes (See aurore set) and the armor classes (see perle). But the waters begin to get muddy with crossovers, Blu for example is blessed with access to teal, and aurore, as is brd, bst gets aurore and perle, which can cause some confusion. This is partly where things get even muddier is rdms see themselves as cousins to blu, as war and drk do, being similar in function, and for a VERY long time, sharing equipment in many slots, but then we watch as blu is granted the same buffs as us and more, superior selection of traits (and stat mods from their spells) and lastly a wider gear selection. Its simple to say rdm shouldnt melee because we arent on a lot of melee gear, but people also say brd shouldnt melee, and theyre on hecatomb, osode, and various other sets.

So we as rdm look at the good melee gear we DO get (like aethling, warwolf, etc) and the swords we keep being given and we see some fun options, but in practice, we are met with resistance, and in asking for enhancements to step out of the obscurity, we are further met with resistance and are shunned by our peers. I personally love my melee rdm build, but the i can look at so many other classes and just feel inadequate, is it rdm itself? Not hardly, is it skill? Nope, especially with composure, accuracy is less an issue, and my buffs, while timeconsuming to cast, are an aspect i LOVE about meleeing on rdm. However to bring back the point most people have to say, it comes to gear and ws access more than anything, we have great weapons, and ws can be bypassed by those with almace or mock empy sword, but our gear pales in comparison to...bard... among many other classes, now if rdm had access to aurore...not a lot would change, but youd see less teal/af melee rdms, if they changed their mind and added us to the hauberk sets, then you might mistake a rdm for a pld here or there even, but sadly neither of these is the case at this time. And the problem is only made worse when you start looking at rdm's subjob selection. A step in the right direction if you ask me is more melee oriented gear (shields included, i personally dependant on function use my genbu (19hp 4% cure pot.) or my sentinel shield (3 str and 1% haste) as shields of choice when meleeing, but then i frown, because our shield skill was quite some time ago, and to this day, remains gimped.

But i stand on the statment that its not the job itself that pales when it comes to melee performance, but the options given to us. On a somewhat related note, id like to see rdm get back their C- (or possibly B-, B, or B+?) shield skill, since they do still seem to want us to use shields, i mean, if we are gonna use em, why cant we use em better?

Edit:
Also that last line of your post made no sense scuro. We are losing on all fronts arguably, cor and brd can buff and debuff better in many situations as they can when it comes to croud control. Whm, and sometimes sch, blu, and dnc can heal as well or superior. Blm, sch, and at times pup can nuke superiorly, as can smn. Lastly a good chunk of the jobs can out melee us. We may be MENT to win buffing and debuffing, but as it stands we are still losing there, and no matter what single target or accession buffs they add, it wont add up when other jobs can keep them up easier and more consistantly for less effort. And lastly we are atleast on the same page with healing, buffing, debuffing, nuking, even croud control, but we arent even on the map when it comes to physical damage, and as our archery is lackluster, and we have 0 physical damage spells, we arent left with many options now are we?

[Stylin]

I feel a RDM should be a better buffer then a SCH, and as it stands, it is not. So why waste time, effort, and consideration on a class that will not DD unless it starts to get DD JA's and actual DD gear that makes it competitive with other DD classes. When they should be establishing the class as the buffer and debuffer class that it is.

WHM, BRD, COR, SCH <Please check it.>

If you honestly believe Red Mage is supposed to be a buffer simply because of Haste, Refresh, and Regen you are fooling yourself. Stop riding that badly translated manifesto's dick.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Like what exactly. Are you seriously with a straight face trying to tell me that RDM's mage components are hurting more then the melee side? RDM is equal parts BLM,WHM,WAR, not WHM ... then BLM ... then maybe WAR. SE already created a job that masters WHM and BLM magic, it's called SCH. BLU is not RDM, no where close, heck if anything BLU's should be wanting a RDM around them always as Dia III is one of the few ways to jack up the damage on BLU physical spells.

Or were you one of the "SE give us Cure V so we can be WHM's again" crowd?

The fact that you haven't been added to my ignore list means I don't consider you a troll. But I will have to ask, have you ever done a serious RDM melee build?

You guys keep talking about "reason to be there" and "invite rate", which is completely and utter bull sh!t. Are you seriously attempting VWNM's in a pick up group? RDM already has plenty of functions and reasons to "be there", Refresh II with AF2 pants along will guaranteed you a spot with the WHMs, although I hate using that as a reason, still it's one. Then of course the Stun / Slow III / Dia III combo is extremely useful, locking out a single TP move consistently makes many T3/T4 VWNM's easier. Then you have T4 nukes for ranged magic damage, and various crowd control options if SE ever creates another Dynamis / Limbus style event. And on top all that you have enough self buffs to make yourself nigh invincible. This is all before considering the melee side, which isn't weak in the slightest.

In fact let me clear some BS up about that, cause I'm tired of a bunch of noobs making claims they know nothing about. RDM's melee side is not weak, don't ever think that. It needs work due to years of SE ignoring it. RDM lacks the ~GEAR~ and that's it, and seeing from the test server .dat's SE is now correcting that by putting RDM back on the haste / TP gear sets. RDM can get 25% haste and capped acc, we suffer in the attack field, but so does BLU. RDM actually only has slightly lower attack then BLU, we're talking 20 or so attack. And if the RDM is /DRK then they have more attack then BLU, but that's a special sub for specific situations. I use Bison Steak on both, Accuracy hasn't been an issue since 75, and anything that RDM will have an acc issue on BLU will to and thus Pizza +1 will be employed. The biggest dependency was that BLU's get Vorpal Blade natively while RDM is forced to use Evisceration. RDM's are on all the nice swords but aren't on any of the nice daggers. RDM's do get Aeolian Edge and can deal good damage with it so they can participate in the mass farming / amber light farming abyssea groups. And seeing that SE is looking at weapon skill distribution, we might be getting sword EX WS's soon which nullifys this entire argument instantly.

So please tell me, what is your experience with all this, or are you just speaking out of "what everyone knows" type ignorance? Cause the more you talk the close your argument sounds to "RDM melee is deh suckz, don't bother, now get to the back and buff me, and bring me my sammich".

I've been meleeing on Rdm since I entered the game 2006, I stopped meleeing when I hit level 40 and started meleeing again when I hit 70+, I kept my skills up to date in skillup parties/solo etc. I'm not saying our mage components are worse than our melee ones, but on Stronger Nms our best skill, Enfeebling, is constantly being either heavily resisted, outright immune, or even worse recently, more NMs have attacks considered TP moves, so our common enfeebles don't even affect them (this is of course on resistant NMs, if our resist rate isn't floored it typically lands fairly easily with a decent set). Even though they promised to look at our enfeebling on resistant NMs the wording greatly disturbs me and I don't exactly feel that they're serious about dealing with the issue. Temper is nice but I feel more information on their planned enfeeblement adjustments and when they plan on implementing them is higher priority, that's all. I also feel the saboteur nerf was completely unnecessary and should either be reversed or alleviated.

Oh no, I actually agree with you on that, and it actually irritates myself a little as well, as of 90 cap assuming both were geared to the max a meleeing Rdm is 5% behind BLU looking at only melee/ws damage; it's CA/Efflux/Self-SC with their spells and better skill level/weaponskill gear keeping BLU ahead. Even then BLU can still melee and maintain decent proficiency in healing/nuking/stunning/crowd control while meleeing (while headbutt is resisted more often on higher NMs, Sudden Lunge isn't as bad although it has a longer recast), Rdm has to drop spell casting load to aid the group to a minimal to deal less damage than mostly everyone else while meleeing. I could care less about Cure V personally but I won't ignore the fact it helps healing more than Cure 4 spam ever will. It's a boring solution but the most obvious one, if SE finds an acceptable alternative as they said they were looking into I'd be happy with that.

Pre Abyssea I kept my Rdm's melee gear at the very minimum at a decent level short of HQ dusk and V belt/AV items, had bad luck on Ose but finally got the drop way too late (was using ACP body with attack/acc augments as a pseudo AJ, later changed to attack/crit after abyssea was released, later changed again this year to acc/dual wield). Still missing Z tiara and a 6% haste belt/minor upgrades in other slots to finish my current TP build, I was hoping my group would work on more Empyreans after finishing +2 sets (been running into low attendance lately with college starting back and issues over payment transfer), if not I'll duo the rest of level 85 with my friend/dbox his account.

[FrankReynolds]

Sorry to derail this Giant friggin Derail, but since this topic is actually about Temper..... Most Red Mage don't really care if their melee gets Buffed.

Claiming that this spell is a move in the right direction and that Red Mage doesn't need more spells that offer better group use just because you are one of the ~%5 Red Mage who are in a LS that puts up with their melee shinanigans is just selfish.

This Spell offers very little to most red mage. The time could have been spent on making a spell that did offer something to most red mage. This is a problem.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Sorry to derail this Giant friggin Derail, but since this topic is actually about Temper..... Most Red Mage don't really care if their melee gets Buffed.

Claiming that this spell is a move in the right direction and that Red Mage doesn't need more spells that offer better group use just because you are one of the ~%5 Red Mage who are in a LS that puts up with their melee shinanigans is just selfish.

This Spell offers very little to most red mage. The time could have been spent on making a spell that did offer something to most red mage. This is a problem.

Again, it would have taken very little time to create this spell, also without proof you saying only ~5% of RDM's want to melee means nothing..

I hate when people make out they speak for the majority of people with no proof to back it up.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Not to mention these forums also take into consideration german, french, and japanese player feedback too, so even if the english users are only 5% of the rdm what actually like to melee, wouldnt that mean there is still enough feedback, support, and desire to melee with the other languages? or are they just pandering to the english forums uncharacteristically? Does seem like a rather HUGE oversight to forget the other languages whom are posting on these boards.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If any forum is getting pandered to, it's the japanese one.

[Scuro]

WHM, BRD, COR, SCH <Please check it.>

If you honestly believe Red Mage is supposed to be a buffer simply because of Haste, Refresh, and Regen you are fooling yourself. Stop riding that badly translated manifesto's dick.

yes obviously RDM is not a good buffer, and that is why things like Temper should have been focused on a party rather then just a self cast that cannot be accesioned.... I'm not saying the buffs you have now make you a great buffer class, obviously not, but what they could introduce would be fantastic, magic attack boost spell, quick magic spell, etc. I mean the list can be endless, and yes I am one of those that is sticking to the manifesto, and feel that RDMs should receive great buffs and debuffs. SE needs to stop wasting its time with DD, (and hell with some of the buffs, like temper, which should of been at least accesionable, it can still boost RDM DD enough to keep the DD RDM quiet) and focus on what it had established as a focus for the class, buffing, and debuffing for the better good of a party.

[Hyrist]

Daniel hit the nail on the head.

Anyone is going to say the numbers are behind them in this argument, so let's just stick with naked desires for the job.

For Buffing: I've already made it clear that I'd prefer RDM be a single target heavy buffer, again it just makes sense that way with all the single target and self target buffs we have. We are late in the game here, with only 5 levels to go after this update. It would take more than just another haste or refresh to put RDM truely in the buffer role. We're talking on the level of a class re-write and just as I said before, I'm really not in support of retconing what we got.

For Debuffing: If we're going to be reliant on stun for addressing TP moves, I'd love to see it on RDM natively, or give us something stronger to address TP moves. I think it's a crutch being limited to a single subjob for support in any one event and because of the potency of Stun being there and ready, it feels like a gimick to keep us in groups. Then again, I feel the same way about people's dependency on refresh. I want our debuff game to be more of an impact. I want it to be the reason we're invited, not something supplementary. To do that we need a stronger presence against TP moves.

Melee:

This is where the playerbase devides. Most people I play with don't care. They know I don't melee on things like Voidwatch mobs or HNMs. Lower tier NMs so long as we're not hurting for cures I can handle fairly well, even with aged gear.

High End NM content is not the sole point of endgame, and there is a strong request for a not so NM tier centeraled endgame. You'll probably see it a lot in Walk of Echoes. I maintain what I said about seeing RDM's martial side being given a stronger utility in groups. SE answered that by saying that they want Enspells or other functions similar on RDM to be about assisting on damage. So long as they back that up adequately with gear and WS updates I'll be fine with it.

I do not mind RDM's melee side to be slightly behind that of BLU,(Note to Scur: I've told you this before BLU's Physical Magic is not Melee, it's magic with an Accuracy modifier.) given what we offer elsewise and the flexibility we can have. It makese sense to me that if BLU sits back and focuses on spells because he's worried bout TP feed, that a RDM should too and also focus more on the magic end. HNM game doesn't change that for me at all.

In the end, what I want to see is more Assault Style content that would make our front line presence more useful, and the gear support WITHIN THAT CONTENT that will help close up the gear gap.

It makes sense to me to get gear that would assist RDM's martial skills in an event in which RDM's martial skills would be utalized. Right now SE's not currently correlating that.

And again, Buffing RDM's melee side is not a waste of time. Developing an endgame that only consists of single hard monster battles with low and random reward yeild is.

Instead of looking to limit down the ability of one job, the focus of development should be to broaden the flexibility and enjoyably of ALL jobs by creating content that isn't so narrowly focused.

Abyssea did a pretty darn good job of this to an extent. Now that it's starting to phase out, they should go ahead an introduce more.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

yes obviously RDM is not a good buffer, and that is why things like Temper should have been focused on a party rather then just a self cast that cannot be accesioned.... I'm not saying the buffs you have now make you a great buffer class, obviously not, but what they could introduce would be fantastic, magic attack boost spell, quick magic spell, etc. I mean the list can be endless, and yes I am one of those that is sticking to the manifesto, and feel that RDMs should receive great buffs and debuffs. SE needs to stop wasting its time with DD, (and hell with some of the buffs, like temper, which should of been at least accesionable, it can still boost RDM DD enough to keep the DD RDM quiet) and focus on what it had established as a focus for the class, buffing, and debuffing for the better good of a party.

Apparently the manifesto was mistranslated, it said RDM was a self-buffer, not party buffer, so Temper fits the manifesto.