Relic WS still bad on the test server

[Kitkat]

I honestly don't think the change of TP mod to Crit chance will fix most of them to be honest. A lot of the Emp WS are just Tp=Dmg with only a few being Ignore def and the rest being crit chance. I'm not saying I don't think that the TP mods don't need to be changed, just that making them all crit chance won't really fix them.

I do agree that they should be adjusted so that the animations match the number of hits done by the WS, but this would also create a problem where the FTP would need to be lowered or the WS would be much stronger than it is. Especially if Mercy Stroke became Crit Chance TP mod. CdC was found to be 2.25fTP and with a 3 hit chance to crit it does upwards of 7.3k damage without brew and on nm's not weak to slashing nor takes more damage at specific points. Currently Mercy Stroke is rather strong, but it isn't as strong as Rudra's storm which still does 3-4k more than peak Mercy Stroke WS damage mainly due to its damage mod being Dex compared to Mercy's Str mod. So once again, a unified fTP mod isn't the answer nor is turning them all into crit chance. They shouldn't have to nerf emp to make them equal to relic either, they just need to fix the TP mod and the fTP of the relics while possibly updating the number of hits. If no change to number of hits occur then a fTP mod adjustment would be the most relevant, not a separately factored damage boost either like what 90 relics got. That didn't really fix the WS in my opinion at all.

[Dart]

They should eliminate the hidden 25% Relic WS damage multiplier on lvl 90 relics and just buff the WS directly in the following way.

All Relic WS become TP=chance to critical hit.

Aftermath duration increased to match Empyreans, and aftermath potency increased.

Change Relic WS to have the same number of hits as their animations. Generally this means 1H relic WS are 4 hit and 2H relic WS are 2 hit. Damage will balance out because 2H relics are much higher DMG than 1H relics. (special case: Knights of Round, Namas Arrow and Coronach should be 2 hits, not one hit. Their animations can be changed to reflect this)

fTP Should be unified at 3.0 for all WS.

Relic WS now have a cRatio bonus of 1.75



Changes not related to WS:

Buff extra damage proc from 5% to 20%

Take a second look at extra effects on weapons and fix those that are useless/detrimental (e.g. change Mandau's Poison additional effect to Plague)

quoted for sexiness and the truth. SE I wish you would read this post

[Atomic_Skull]

I honestly don't think the change of TP mod to Crit chance will fix most of them to be honest. A lot of the Emp WS are just Tp=Dmg with only a few being Ignore def and the rest being crit chance. I'm not saying I don't think that the TP mods don't need to be changed, just that making them all crit chance won't really fix them.

I think you just skimmed my post without actually reading it.


Ukko's Fury:

2 hits, fTP 2.0 STR_60% TP=Crit

Metatron Torment (after proposed change)

2 hits, FTP 3.0 STR_60% TP=crit cRatio*1.75

Rudra's Storm:

1 hit, fTP 3.25~5.5 DEX_60% TP=Damage

Mercy Stroke (after proposed change)

4 hits, fTP 3.0 STR_60% TP=Crit cRatio*1.75

Currently Mercy Stroke is rather strong, but it isn't as strong as Rudra's storm which still does 3-4k more than peak Mercy Stroke WS damage mainly due to its damage mod being Dex compared to Mercy's Str mod.

If you are using heca in your SATA set then the STR bonus is actually better than a DEX bonus.

[Return1]

A lot of people seem to want to pitch relic fixes without actually having relics.

The single hit nature of Relic WSs is a boon, not a shortcoming. This means we can virtually ignore accuracy altogether, adding more WSC mods. Having +1 to fTP is essentially the same as adding an extra hit as well, disregarding the extra tp per hit, it's actually better.

The +25% damage to Relic Weaponskills last upgrade was amazing and closed the gap significantly. In fact, for some noncrit WS Empyreons, the Relics are pretty even, maybe even slightly better. A nice benefit of adding a 1.25 multiplier to the end is that it boosts DA/TA/QA procs, and SE damage for DRKs, whereas a straight fTP boost wouldn't affect those.

If SE at very least adds a 1.50 multiplier Relics should catch up significantly in WS damage, but either making all WSs capable of crits or 1.75 multipliers would make Relics worth it again.

[Frost]

A lot of people seem to want to pitch relic fixes without actually having relics.

The single hit nature of Relic WSs is a boon, not a shortcoming. This means we can virtually ignore accuracy altogether, adding more WSC mods. Having +1 to fTP is essentially the same as adding an extra hit as well, disregarding the extra tp per hit, it's actually better.

The +25% damage to Relic Weaponskills last upgrade was amazing and closed the gap significantly. In fact, for some noncrit WS Empyreons, the Relics are pretty even, maybe even slightly better. A nice benefit of adding a 1.25 multiplier to the end is that it boosts DA/TA/QA procs, and SE damage for DRKs, whereas a straight fTP boost wouldn't affect those.

If SE at very least adds a 1.50 multiplier Relics should catch up significantly in WS damage, but either making all WSs capable of crits or 1.75 multipliers would make Relics worth it again.

This is assuming that relic Weaponskills actually get an accuracy bonus. From my experience... They don't. Relic Weaponskills are painfully underpowered in nearly every way... It's infuriating because we've been promised a "fix" for nearly 7+ years, and the closest we've gotten was a 25% bump to what in most cases would be considered mediocre damage to begin with.

[Atomic_Skull]

A lot of people seem to want to pitch relic fixes without actually having relics.

The single hit nature of Relic WSs is a boon, not a shortcoming. This means we can virtually ignore accuracy altogether, adding more WSC mods. Having +1 to fTP is essentially the same as adding an extra hit as well, disregarding the extra tp per hit, it's actually better.

The +25% damage to Relic Weaponskills last upgrade was amazing and closed the gap significantly. In fact, for some noncrit WS Empyreons, the Relics are pretty even, maybe even slightly better. A nice benefit of adding a 1.25 multiplier to the end is that it boosts DA/TA/QA procs, and SE damage for DRKs, whereas a straight fTP boost wouldn't affect those.

If SE at very least adds a 1.50 multiplier Relics should catch up significantly in WS damage, but either making all WSs capable of crits or 1.75 multipliers would make Relics worth it again.

The suggested 1.75 cRatio multiplier is not a direct damage multiplier, it would make the WS partially ignore level difference like Y/G/K/ Steel Cyclone, Spinning Slash etc. It is similar to (though not precisely the same as) giving the WS an attack bonus. I advocate that rather that just increasing the fTP because it wouldn't necessarily make the WS more damaging (it would do nothing on mobs that were less than T), but would make it more useful on high level mobs.

Single hit with a moderate fTP isn't much of a boon on Mercy Stroke, 9 times out of 10 you end up spamming Evisceration anyway. A 4 hit crit WS with a 3.0 fTP on the first hit would be far more useful to THF.

This is assuming that relic Weaponskills actually get an accuracy bonus. From my experience... They don't.

All physical WS have an accuracy bonus to the first hit.

[wish12oz]

Camlann's Torment is still ass on the test server too. Along with relic WS some of these need more than more +25% etc. The mods of these WS or what they do altogether needs to be changed. (Guttler's WS is a single hit attack for example, are you kidding? Look at the animation!)

But seriously, I just did a Camlann's with everything I could think of to max the damage. MC/VV/Apoc with all the vit attack str I could squeeze in. Drakesbane STILL outdid it significantly WITHOUT razed ruins! What the Hell!

If you aren't ignoring me can you at least just give me a /nod or something if the devs are looking into this WS Camate?

Edit: The only thing I can really think of that'd offer a big difference in damage is a TP bonus moonshade earring which I don't have yet, but that benefits Drakes too!

OMG lets all freak out because DRG has a very good WS that is easy to acquire!!!!

[Return1]

The suggested 1.75 cRatio multiplier is not a direct damage multiplier, it would make the WS partially ignore level difference like Y/G/K/ Steel Cyclone, Spinning Slash etc. It is similar to (though not precisely the same as) giving the WS an attack bonus. I advocate that rather that just increasing the fTP because it wouldn't necessarily make the WS more damaging (it would do nothing on mobs that were less than T), but would make it more useful on high level mobs.

Single hit with a moderate fTP isn't much of a boon on Mercy Stroke, 9 times out of 10 you end up spamming Evisceration anyway. A 4 hit crit WS with a 3.0 fTP on the first hit would be far more useful to THF..

The 1.75 I'm proposing would be a straight multiplier tacked on the end, just like the 1.25 currently is. It'd be better than a cRatio boost for most cases.

Very few WSs have a large initial hit fTP value (over 1) if they have more than 2 hits. Also, evisceration is only used when SA/TA is down in Abyssea. A multihit with a total fTP of 4.2 with all hits landing is weaker than a single hit with an fTP of 4.2 when given the same WSC, because the multihit requires far more accuracy, and thus has less WSC. SATA also makes the single hit preferable to THF and (lol)/THF.

Making all physical WSs capable of criting would fix A LOT of imbalance in this game.




And yes, as an Apoc holder I can confirm Relic WSs do get the ACC bonus on first hit, just like every physical WS in the game.

[Kitkat]

I did read what you posted, but I see you're basically doing the same thing you accuse me of. Your proposal will break relic WS more, hell Mercy would become the new evisceration and no longer even need SA which to me is very broken. Don't need another 4 hit crit dmg WS that has a 3.0 ftp on first hit. People want them to be equal, not overpowered/unbalanced.

If you are using heca in your SATA set then the STR bonus is actually better than a DEX bonus.

The Str set for Mercy is not comparable to the Dex set for Rudra's storm, but is still the best set for Mercy Stroke, that is the only point that I was making. Also, you can't say a Str Bonus is better than a Dex Bonus for base SA/TA either as that is inaccurate when looking at the individual functions of the abilities. However, this is not a thf discussion thread it is a relic weapon thread so I won't go any further off topic than that.

[Return1]

I did read what you posted, but I see you're basically doing the same thing you accuse me of. Your proposal will break relic WS more, hell Mercy would become the new evisceration and no longer even need SA which to me is very broken. Don't need another 4 hit crit dmg WS that has a 3.0 ftp on first hit. People want them to be equal, not overpowered/unbalanced.

What? MC should be equal to Evisceration? Where's the first 4 hit WS with a starting 3.0 fTP? What are you talking about?

Relics should be THE STRONGEST ONE THERE IS! SE also said they planned to make Relics the strongest, Mythics focus on Job Specific boosts, and Empyreans the easymode alternative to Relics and thus a bit less powerful. That's how it should be too from an effort and reward stand point.