Pray

[Vortex]

SpankWustler, you can say this again and again and you will continue to get the answer that you are a terrible White Mage that doesn't understand and can't survive outside Abyssea, despite evidence to the contrary. You might even get called names over it, like Ahrana did. At this point, we're clearly explaining a clear point and being told in rude and abusive language that we are bad White Mages. Just keep preaching the math and ignore dismissive people.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

i'm not being rude i am trying to explain how you can expand your playstyle, you probably should learnt he difference between "rude" and "facts, [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

"evidence to the contrary."
you're a funny guy, even i don't use regen that often perhaps you should learn how to read more careful i know it's very difficult but you can do it, where i said it is situational, do you understand what that means?
my entire point to this whole dumb debate was that it is not useless


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

[SpankWustler]

I'm not saying that Regen spells are totally useless. I'm saying that Regen spells are not nearly as useful as they were because of the increase in Cure MP efficiency, and that this is a big change in mechanics worthy of note. It's very likely big enough that it is worthwhile to change one's strategy and possibly merits in response.

Currently, Regen spells are still very useful when Cure spells aren't super-duper MP efficient due to a lack of equipment. I personally still use Regen IV at times outside of Abyssea because, honestly, my equipment is pretty awful thanks to my last hiatus (I have Orison Pantaloons +2, but I can't get my cure potency quite high enough to get really efficient numbers yet and I do not yet have Orison Bliault +2).

I still recognize, however, that with an ideal set equipped Cure IV and Cure V pretty much obsolete the Regen line of spells. I like the Regen line of spells a lot, so this is a disappointment for me, but math is math and numbers are numbers.

I'd really like for someone who knows more about ideal gear for curing than myself to run the math for Cure IV efficiency while taking the Stoneskin effect and Orison Pantaloons +2 into account. I did some quick and dirty napkin math without even saving anything in notepad and probably getting some numbers wrong, which came out to around 13.6 HP / MP but I'm sure there's a more accurate number out there.

There are definitely times when Cure V isn't needed, that much is very true.

[Vortex]

I'm not saying that Regen spells are totally useless. I'm saying that Regen spells are not nearly as useful as they were because of the increase in Cure MP efficiency, and that this is a big change in mechanics worthy of note. It's very likely big enough that it is worthwhile to change one's strategy and possibly merits in response.

Currently, Regen spells are still very useful when Cure spells aren't super-duper MP efficient due to a lack of equipment. I personally still use Regen IV at times outside of Abyssea because, honestly, my equipment is pretty awful thanks to my last hiatus (I have Orison Pantaloons +2, but I can't get my cure potency quite high enough to get really efficient numbers yet and I do have Orison Bliault +2).

I still recognize, however, that with an ideal set equipped Cure IV and Cure V pretty much obsolete the Regen line of spells. I like the Regen line of spells a lot, so this is a disappointment for me, but math is math and numbers are numbers.

I'd really like for someone who knows more about ideal gear for curing than myself to run the math for Cure IV efficiency while taking the Stoneskin effect and Orison Pantaloons +2 into account. I did some quick and dirty napkin math without even saving anything in notepad and probably getting some numbers wrong, which came out to around 13.6 HP / MP but I'm sure there's a more accurate number out there.

There are definitely times when Cure V isn't needed, that much is very true.

got to love when a mod buctchers your post because the truth was to hurtful to someone and they decided to cry.

in anycase as a whm you would have to be ready for any sitation, weither they realized this fact or not regen was there to save mp, 6 is never used outside because it is to much MP and often over cures someone, 5 and 6 aren't THAT far apart, you're better with 5 in most cases if your set is decent. i'm not going to keep expalaning how to use regen properly, as it's apprent that if i make someone QQ they go running to a mod, it is something that should come natural to whms when playing the job i hardly use it my self but i don't really do any heavy content outside abyssea as opposed to7 5 days. but i'll toss it in there when needed. guess we need actual challanges now.

[SpankWustler]

got to love when a mod buctchers your post because the truth was to hurtful to someone and they decided to cry.

in anycase as a whm you would have to be ready for any sitation, weither they realized this fact or not regen was there to save mp, 6 is never used outside because it is to much MP and often over cures someone, 5 and 6 aren't THAT far apart, you're better with 5 in most cases if your set is decent. i'm not going to keep expalaning how to use regen properly, as it's apprent that if i make someone QQ they go running to a mod, it is something that should come natural to whms when playing the job i hardly use it my self but i don't really do any heavy content outside abyssea as opposed to7 5 days. but i'll toss it in there when needed. guess we need actual challanges now.

I was referencing Cure IV, since it is more appropriate when someone is missing less HP but needs a cure anyway. Cure VI is pretty much useless outside of Abyssea, and provides the only way to run out of MP within Abyssea.

[Vortex]

I was referencing Cure IV, since it is more appropriate when someone is missing less HP but needs a cure anyway. Cure VI is pretty much useless outside of Abyssea, and provides the only way to run out of MP within Abyssea.

oh 4, i miss read it >.> yea 4 can very efficient if you're potency is caped. unless they are in red hp 4 can get the job done, even in abyssea in some cases.

[Mirage]

Well guys, if Aleste's math is wrong, you guys disagreeing should just show us where and why, and this whole argument would be over!

[SpankWustler]

Well guys, if Aleste's math is wrong, you guys disagreeing should just show us where and why, and this whole argument would be over!

I agree with Aleste's math totally. I'd actually like to see the numbers for more spells because it looks like a good Cure IV beats the line Regen by a noticeable margin as well (not by NEARLY as much as Cure V, but it should come out ahead unless I really mucked things up).

I was referring to my own scribblings in notepad when I mentioned suspect math, since I didn't account for FFXI's relentless flooring process.

[Aleste]

:: Warning :: This post contains mathematics; TL;DR section at the end

Hrmm... there was me hoping to crush that argument... but alas~

As far as efficiency numbers go...

Regen 3, 20/tick, 64 MP, 5s casting time
Regen 3 (no gear, no merits - 400hp) 6.25 HP/MP
Regen 3 (no gear, merits - 500hp) 7.81 HP/MP
Regen 3 (gear, no merits - 575hp) 8.98 HP/MP
Regen 3 (gear, merits - 700hp) 10.93 HP/MP

Regen 4, 30/tick, 82 MP, 5s casting time
Regen 4 (no gear, no merits - 600hp) 7.31 HP/MP
Regen 4 (no gear, merits - 700hp) 8.53 HP/MP
Regen 4 (gear, no merits - 825hp) 10.06 HP/MP
Regen 4 (gear, merits - 975hp) 11.98 HP/MP

Low Quality WHM Cures
(601 power)

Cure 3, 252HP (88SS), 46 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 5.47 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 7.39 HP/MP

Cure 4, 508HP (177SS), 88 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 5.77 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 7.78 HP/MP

Cure 5, 885HP(221SS), 135 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 6.55 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 8.19 HP/MP

Cure 6, 1096HP(274SS), 227 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 4.83 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 5.28 HP/MP

High Quality WHM Cures
(811 power)

Cure 3, 306HP (107SS), 27 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 11.33 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 15.96 HP/MP

Cure 4, 621HP (217SS), 49 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 12.67 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 17.10 HP/MP

Cure 5, 1093HP(382SS), 68 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 16.07 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 21.68 HP/MP

Cure 6, 1452HP(400SS), 155 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 9.37 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 11.94 HP/MP

With 'gear' for Regen being Cleric's Briault and Orison Mitts +2.
'Low Quality WHM' for cures being Nobles body, Light Staff, AF3+1 head = 27% Potency
'High Quality WHM', /sch +49%pot, capped skill+merits, Orison Bliaud +2, Orison Pantaloons +2, +70MND gear




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hate math and TL;DR:

If you're a junk WHM;

Regen4(merits) 8.53
Cure5 (SS) 8.19
Regen3(merits) 7.81
Cure4 (SS) 7.78
Cure3 (SS) 7.39
Regen4 (no merits) 7.31
Cure5 (noSS) 6.55
Regen3 (no merits) 6.25
Cure4 (noSS) 5.77
Cure3 (noSS) 5.47
Cure6 (SS) 5.28
Cure6 (noSS) 4.83

If you're a pro WHM;

Cure5 (SS) 21.68
Cure4 (SS) 17.10
Cure5 (no SS) 16.07
Cure3 (SS) 15.96
Cure4 (no SS) 12.67
Regen 4 (merits) 11.98
Cure6 (SS) 11.94
Cure3 (no SS) 11.33
Regen 3 (merits) 10.93
Regen 4 (no merits) 10.06
Cure6 (no SS) 9.37
Regen 3 (no merits) 8.98

[SpankWustler]

Awesome. That goes above and beyond anything I asked for, and I'm very appreciative of seeing it all sorted out. Thanks a ton.

[Aleste]

No problem, I was going to draw a graph, but then I couldn't be bothered.

I'm actually quite surprised at the efficiency numbers, I'll probably start using Regen less now ~.~;