Pray

[Ahrana]

In short regen should never be underestimated if used in the right situations. i shake my head at whms who never use it saying it's "not worth it"

If regen is "worth it" then you're fighting stuff that is trivial. Against anything that actually hits decently hard you're better off using cure spells. The mp difference between healing 975 hp's with regen IV and cure V is 5 mp (82 vs 87), with the difference being that it casts faster, the hp's are healed now, I give them a stoneskin effect, and it frees up half my group 1 merits for a spell that can be a lifesaver (barspells). I can also cure someone outside of my party.

Regen was a decent tool when leveling up back when we use to fight offensively weak crabs, but with anything that has even medium spike damage it just doesn't do the job.

[SpankWustler]

If regen is "worth it" then you're fighting stuff that is trivial. Against anything that actually hits decently hard you're better off using cure spells. The mp difference between healing 975 hp's with regen IV and cure V is 5 mp (82 vs 87), with the difference being that it casts faster, the hp's are healed now, I give them a stoneskin effect, and it frees up half my group 1 merits for a spell that can be a lifesaver (barspells). I can also cure someone outside of my party.

Regen was a decent tool when leveling up back when we use to fight offensively weak crabs, but with anything that has even medium spike damage it just doesn't do the job.

This is the truest thing anyone has ever said.

I loved the relative level of skill involved in using Regen spells for merit-party-like content back in the day, but they're near-useless now that White Mage is so awesome at casting Cure spells.

[Vortex]

If regen is "worth it" then you're fighting stuff that is trivial. Against anything that actually hits decently hard you're better off using cure spells. The mp difference between healing 975 hp's with regen IV and cure V is 5 mp (82 vs 87), with the difference being that it casts faster, the hp's are healed now, I give them a stoneskin effect, and it frees up half my group 1 merits for a spell that can be a lifesaver (barspells). I can also cure someone outside of my party.

Regen was a decent tool when leveling up back when we use to fight offensively weak crabs, but with anything that has even medium spike damage it just doesn't do the job.

Then you should probably learn how to play whm better, because not everything will do "huge spike damage" and more often then not somone is shadow tanking or nin is main tanking, if they take aoe damage sometimes, regen will give them the hp back without you over curing. barspells are indeed useful, but like most things in this game they are also situational, not everything attacks you with elemental attacks, nothing wrong with regen merits if someone chooses to do them. Not a very valid point.

This is the truest thing anyone has ever said.

I loved the relative level of skill involved in using Regen spells for merit-party-like content back in the day, but they're near-useless now that White Mage is so awesome at casting Cure spells.

yes, because the obvious awnser is to over cure at all times, instead of being intellegent. clear reason why so many whms suck at the job.

[Ahrana]

Then you should probably learn how to play whm better, because not everything will do "huge spike damage" and more often then not somone is shadow tanking or nin is main tanking, if they take aoe damage sometimes, regen will give them the hp back without you over curing.

There are probably people out there that can teach me how to play white mage, but by reading your argument I know that you're not one of them. Even if something doesn't do "huge spike damage," you simply don't gain much by casting regen and waiting the 75 seconds it takes to have full effect. A much better option, at least in my opinion, is curing the damage directly with a cure spell. Even if they are nin or /nin, as you suggest most people are now adays, then this is generally preferable because the stoneskin effect can help them get shadows back up, as opposed to just hoping that they don't get hit again. And if something is wiping shadows once, chances are they're going to wipe them again before regen runs its course.

barspells are indeed useful, but like most things in this game they are also situational, not everything attacks you with elemental attacks, nothing wrong with regen merits if someone chooses to do them. Not a very valid point.

They are situational, just like regen. The difference is that barspells tend to be a useful in fights where incoming damage is considerable, and regen is useful in fights that are trivial. I won't naysay someone that gets regen merits because a lot of people enjoy playing content where they are useful, but the regen spell just isn't useful for end game content. Blah blah maybe salvage, or you could use phallanx instead and take no damage.

yes, because the obvious awnser is to over cure at all times, instead of being intellegent. clear reason why so many whms suck at the job.

If you're over curing with cure then you're over curing with regen. "Being intelligent" in this case is using a inferior tool in situations where you could use a superior tool, just because you're trying to make the inferior tool useful.

The real use of the regen spells way back when was so you could get an extra tick or two of mp when healing. You cure a tank back up to full, throw your highest tier regen spell on them, and you were hoping that bought you enough time so that you could kneel down for 10 or 20 extra seconds. People tended to fight monsters that didn't require a lot of status cures, or else you had a backup healer to cover them while the whm was healing.

Regen was never a tool that replaced curing when fighting non-trivial content.

[Vortex]

There are probably people out there that can teach me how to play white mage, but by reading your argument I know that you're not one of them. Even if something doesn't do "huge spike damage," you simply don't gain much by casting regen and waiting the 75 seconds it takes to have full effect. A much better option, at least in my opinion, is curing the damage directly with a cure spell. Even if they are nin or /nin, as you suggest most people are now adays, then this is generally preferable because the stoneskin effect can help them get shadows back up, as opposed to just hoping that they don't get hit again. And if something is wiping shadows once, chances are they're going to wipe them again before regen runs its course.

Yea you are right, because you are obviously unteachable. if i have to sit here and explain to you how to use regen then all hope for you is lost. i never said "use it all the time" perhaps you should try supporting outside abyssea where things are actually challanging. since you aren't pamperd with mp and you can just spam any cure to top off hp.

While regen is restoring there hp you have time to do other things like haste the dds, tanks cure other members, etc. while the hp is filling up the person with regen, not stand there and wait for there hp to drop so you can cast a cure and pat your self on the back.

They are situational, just like regen. The difference is that barspells tend to be a useful in fights where incoming damage is considerable, and regen is useful in fights that are trivial. I won't naysay someone that gets regen merits because a lot of people enjoy playing content where they are useful, but the regen spell just isn't useful for end game content. Blah blah maybe salvage, or you could use phallanx instead and take no damage.

WHM does not get phalanx, unless of course the dumb asses who choose /rdm over /sch. as i said above, try content outside abyssea, regen will overtime save you mp, but you need to not be stupid. learn when to use it correctly, during periods where somone is not taking MANY hits. obvisouly useing regen on something that is using hundred fist or constant triple/double attack is not going to help, but you aren't reading between the lines. regen is never nor will ever be useless to a whm who knows what they are doing

If you're over curing with cure then you're over curing with regen. "Being intelligent" in this case is using a inferior tool in situations where you could use a superior tool, just because you're trying to make the inferior tool useful.

Yes, regen is "over curing" gradual Hp recovery is over curing, are you stupid? or just in denial. again, i can explain to you how gradual hp recovery is diffrent but if you lack the intellect to tell the diffrence i can't help you, tank takes 400 aoe damage once every 1 minute but not taking any more damage in between them, regen will give them the hp back, or you can just sit there and over cure him wasting mp. You need to learn the diffrence between "inferior" and "superior" because it would only be inferior to people who only know how to press a cure macro and call it a day, that is not playing whm that is just being a mindless, cure bot.

The real use of the regen spells way back when was so you could get an extra tick or two of mp when healing. You cure a tank back up to full, throw your highest tier regen spell on them, and you were hoping that bought you enough time so that you could kneel down for 10 or 20 extra seconds. People tended to fight monsters that didn't require a lot of status cures, or else you had a backup healer to cover them while the whm was healing.

Because abyssea has spoiled many players, people are used to near limitless mp so they can just cure 5 - cure 6 - cure v - cure 6 no matter how much HP the person is missing and not worry about it, outside you cannot do that or get a swift dry mp pool. i don't recall ever needing a back up healer, in my entire whm carrer, sure it helps but very few situations i couldnt handle, the ONLY exception was probably odin back in the 75 days since most mp went to rebuffing due his constant dispeliing.

Regen was never a tool that replaced curing when fighting non-trivial content.

I never said it replaced curing, i am stating it is always useful when used correctly, but you have to be good at whm to know these things, WHM has been my main for the past 6 years, i have done enough on it during HNM ls days to know what works and what dosn't no i don't regen everything, everywhere, i know when to use it and not to use it. so don't sit here trying to explain to whm fundamentals when i clearly seem to know them better then you do.

PS i actually have cure cast time and barspell merits, i simply stated there is nothing wrong with somone meriting regen, barspells will still serve there porpuse with or without merits. merits just makes them stronger obviously.

again, these are things with whm you actually need to be smart. when you can do more then spam cure macros only you may see it. Sure i can teach you whm, but you have to be willing to learn, no one has ever complaind about how i play whm, with the exception of few retards who had the mentaility of a 8 year old. nor would ever shell i'v been in constatnly asked me to be whm all the time if i didn't. if you don't agree with how regen work then that is you, but do not insult me just because i clearly know something you havn't figured out yet.

again so you can help figure it out on your own let me tell you the diffrence

barspells reduce the damage from elemental attacks

Regen gradually restores Hp over time

why you are comparing the 2 are beyond me they do 2 diffrent things, and like i just explain they are used in diffrent situations, if you are fighting a blm mob spaming spells then barspells will shine, if you are fighting a mob that does no elemental attacks but physcial damage and sometimes aoes barspells will not help you, regen will in the hopes that it's not constatly spaming aoe moves. do you see the diffrence? if you can learn the diffrence you may actually become better at whm.

Try to respond in a better way then "i spam cure only so regen is useless" responses. i take whm seriously enough.

[Ahrana]

You made the assumption that I'm only talking about abyssea, yet I never mentioned inside abyssea specifically. Additionally, the point about being pampered with mp in abyssea is moot; I've stated multiple times that the difference in mp costs between comparable regens and cures is negligible assuming the caster has access to both af3+2 pants and af2 body. The comment about sitting there waiting to spam cure really doesn't make any sense either, since you should be doing that regardless. Fact is that if you use cure you will have additional time to do these tasks because of all the -cure casting time equipment/merits available.

The question about regen is what is the benefit for using it over a equivalent mp cure that casts quicker?

WHM does not get phalanx, unless of course the dumb asses who choose /rdm over /sch. as i said above, try content outside abyssea, regen will overtime save you mp, but you need to not be stupid. learn when to use it correctly, during periods where somone is not taking MANY hits. obvisouly useing regen on something that is using hundred fist or constant triple/double attack is not going to help, but you aren't reading between the lines. regen is never nor will ever be useless to a whm who knows what they are doing.

Regardless of sub white mage will never be able to use phalanx on someone else, that was more of a comment of "take a redmage for your healing if you're fighting trivial stuff." As far as /rdm vs /sch, they're both good subs depending on personal play style. Using /rdm as a sub gives a white mage more raw mp and gives full time access to dispel (mab, fast cast, blah blah), while /sch gives more utility with light arts + stratagems and more timely bursts of mp with sublimation. Both are excellent subs for white mage, and while I do tend to use /sch most of the time I find that /rdm (and occasionally /blm) is equally useful.

But your comment about using regen for occasional hits from light to moderate AoE damage makes me wonder what content your talking about. The problem I have with this, outside of you saying again that I'm a whm noob, is that you don't know when a person is going to be taking a lot of hits, AoE or otherwise.

Yes, regen is "over curing" gradual Hp recovery is over curing, are you stupid? or just in denial. again, i can explain to you how gradual hp recovery is diffrent but if you lack the intellect to tell the diffrence i can't help you, tank takes 400 aoe damage once every 1 minute but not taking any more damage in between them, regen will give them the hp back, or you can just sit there and over cure him wasting mp. You need to learn the diffrence between "inferior" and "superior" because it would only be inferior to people who only know how to press a cure macro and call it a day, that is not playing whm that is just being a mindless, cure bot.

"Over curing" is using healing in excess of what the target needs to get back to full hp's, which can happen just as easilly with regen as with cures. Once again the mp difference between curing and using regen is negligible if the caster has af3+2 pants. If the person that I just cured gets hit again before the Solace stoneskin effect wears off then I just blew your regen mp efficiency numbers out of the water. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand.

Because abyssea has spoiled many players, people are used to near limitless mp so they can just cure 5 - cure 6 - cure v - cure 6 no matter how much HP the person is missing and not worry about it, outside you cannot do that or get a swift dry mp pool. i don't recall ever needing a back up healer, in my entire whm carrer, sure it helps but very few situations i couldnt handle, the ONLY exception was probably odin back in the 75 days since most mp went to rebuffing due his constant dispeliing.

I never said it replaced curing, i am stating it is always useful when used correctly, but you have to be good at whm to know these things, WHM has been my main for the past 6 years, i have done enough on it during HNM ls days to know what works and what dosn't no i don't regen everything, everywhere, i know when to use it and not to use it. so don't sit here trying to explain to whm fundamentals when i clearly seem to know them better then you do.

I'm an old G white mage, so don't try to pull that card on me. I'm talking being able to tell the difference between blaster and chaotic eye based on sound because you leveled up on toramas old school. While I don't play white mage at every event I do I have played every event as white mage, and I play white mage more then any two of my other jobs combined. With that in mind, we can put the entire "noob abyssea white mage" argument to rest now.

But since we're on the topic of HNM's, let me ask you what end game content you would actually use regen on? I'm not going to hope that regen heals enough hp's before the person gets hit again for sky NM's, sea NM's, most limbus runs, ground kings, ToAU kings, T2+ VMN's, most ZNM's, salvage NM's, Dynamsis, Einherjar, or Voidwatch NM's.

So out of anything that could be considered "end game," the only situations where regen would be useful is...sky/sea regular hall trash, weak limbus monsters and early salvage? What am I missing that catapults regen into a position where it can be compared to cure without it getting laughed off the table?

I'd also like to take this time to say that if a white mage is healing light/medium AoE damage that misery + cura + esuna can often blow any other mp efficiency out of the water, and that curaga can often be near a free spell with af3+2 pants.

PS i actually have cure cast time and barspell merits, i simply stated there is nothing wrong with somone meriting regen, barspells will still serve there porpuse with or without merits. merits just makes them stronger obviously.

The reason that the merits are important to the conversation is that without them regen doesn't get anywhere close to cure V's potency, and without that efficiency number to hang your hat on the regen argument becomes laughable. So besides just arguing the efficiency numbers it also becomes a question of opportunity cost of getting regen merits vs barspell merits.

And just for sake of completeness, once you start comparing mp cost of regen with a hp healed value of only 850 it gets blown out of the water by cure spells.

again, these are things with whm you actually need to be smart. when you can do more then spam cure macros only you may see it. Sure i can teach you whm, but you have to be willing to learn, no one has ever complaind about how i play whm, with the exception of few retards who had the mentaility of a 8 year old. nor would ever shell i'v been in constatnly asked me to be whm all the time if i didn't. if you don't agree with how regen work then that is you, but do not insult me just because i clearly know something you havn't figured out yet.

If your shell asks you to come white mage then it's probably because they know you'll come white mage without crying about it, just like my linkshell often asks me to come white mage. That in itself isn't validating your stance on regen.

again so you can help figure it out on your own let me tell you the diffrence

barspells reduce the damage from elemental attacks

Regen gradually restores Hp over time

why you are comparing the 2 are beyond me they do 2 diffrent things, and like i just explain they are used in diffrent situations, if you are fighting a blm mob spaming spells then barspells will shine, if you are fighting a mob that does no elemental attacks but physcial damage and sometimes aoes barspells will not help you, regen will in the hopes that it's not constatly spaming aoe moves. do you see the diffrence? if you can learn the diffrence you may actually become better at whm.

I'm comparing the two because you get to pick one (assuming you pick -cure casting time first). Without the regen merits the topic of regen mp efficiency becomes laughable, and I still consider it to be laughable even with them. But this is the question of opportunity cost: you only get to pick one, so which one with you get more or better use out of? That's why you can compare the two, because they form a character customization choice where you can only maximize one.

Try to respond in a better way then "i spam cure only so regen is useless" responses. i take whm seriously enough.

Ok, to sum up:
AF3+2 pants makes the mp efficiency negligible between the two. If the solace stoneskin is on when the person is next hit then it pushes the mp efficiency argument in favor of curing.
The mp efficiency argument can only be made if the person takes regen merits over barspell merits. Otherwise cure blows regen out.
Cure heals all the hp's instantly, and it casts much faster then regen.

While this may be harder to quantify, another issue with regen is more support classes outside of abyssea. If someone is missing a ~cure 3 worth of hp's, many redmages and bards that I do things with will top them off, which makes throwing the regen in the first place a waste of mp.

So with that concise set of reasons that cure is better than regen, I'm asking you what you are specifically fighting that makes regen such a useful tool. Educate me.

[Aleste]

...
"Over curing" is using healing in excess of what the target needs to get back to full hp's, which can happen just as easilly with regen as with cures. Once again the mp difference between curing and using regen is negligible if the caster has af3+2 pants. If the person that I just cured gets hit again before the Solace stoneskin effect wears off then I just blew your regen mp efficiency numbers out of the water. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand.

The reason that the merits are important to the conversation is that without them regen doesn't get anywhere close to cure V's potency, and without that efficiency number to hang your hat on the regen argument becomes laughable. So besides just arguing the efficiency numbers it also becomes a question of opportunity cost of getting regen merits vs barspell merits.

And just for sake of completeness, once you start comparing mp cost of regen with a hp healed value of only 850 it gets blown out of the water by cure spells.

Ok, to sum up:
AF3+2 pants makes the mp efficiency negligible between the two. If the solace stoneskin is on when the person is next hit then it pushes the mp efficiency argument in favor of curing.
The mp efficiency argument can only be made if the person takes regen merits over barspell merits. Otherwise cure blows regen out.
Cure heals all the hp's instantly, and it casts much faster then regen.

So with that concise set of reasons that cure is better than regen, I'm asking you what you are specifically fighting that makes regen such a useful tool. Educate me.

^Just a little math to support this;

Regen IV w/ full merits and gear (relic body+af3+2 hands) heals 975HP over 75 seconds for 82MP, with ~ 4.5 second casting time.
This gives an approximation (assuming no overcure) of 11.89 HP/MP.

Cure V w/ appropriate gear (~+49%pot, capped skill+merits, +70MND gear) heals 1,092HP w/ 382HP stoneskin for 68MP, with ~ 1.3 second casting time.

Assuming no cure and stoneskin, 5.61 HP/MP
Assuming full cure and no stoneskin, 16.06 HP/MP
Assuming full cure and stoneskin, 21.68 HP/MP


Of course personal mileage may vary depending on gear and the quantity of overhealing...

[Vortex]

^Just a little math to support this;

Regen IV w/ full merits and gear (relic body+af3+2 hands) heals 975HP over 75 seconds for 82MP, with ~ 4.5 second casting time.
This gives an approximation (assuming no overcure) of 11.89 HP/MP.

Cure V w/ appropriate gear (~+49%pot, capped skill+merits, +70MND gear) heals 1,092HP w/ 382HP stoneskin for 68MP, with ~ 1.3 second casting time.

Assuming no cure and stoneskin, 5.61 HP/MP
Assuming full cure and no stoneskin, 16.06 HP/MP
Assuming full cure and stoneskin, 21.68 HP/MP


Of course personal mileage may vary depending on gear and the quantity of overhealing...

I didn't bother anymore with her posts, it is apprently that this player will stay a waterd down, abyssea addicted whm, who does not understand the full aspect of whm, it is actually my fault for thinking whms actually take the job serious enough, and keeps trying to explain shit to me that i have already known, so with that being said i didn't bother reading anymore of her posts, as once i started it was just the same BS. if he/she wants to stay a standerd i only use half my abilites whm then so be, just thankful i don't have to watch thier display. the most retarded thing is he/she keeps comparing regen and actual cures to me like i don't know the ####ing diffrence. this player is beyond my help. some things are just better left alone.


So Ahrana if you are reading, i am done with you. Never had a problem curing, never had a problem using regen. if you need to explain to me the shit i already knew before you probably even leveld whm, then it is just turning into a insult, when you want to actually know some pointers you can speak to me. but for now, i am not getting into this.

once again

REGEN IS FOR GRADUAL HP RECOVERY AT SET INTERVEALS WHEN USED APPROPRIATLY CAN SAVE YOU MP

CURING IS A SET INSTANT HP RECOVERY Good god are you that retarded that you don't know the diffrence? it is clear you are not yet advanced at whm yet to understand these type of advanced actions, come back when you better understand the job.

oh and a bit of advice, you may want to stay away from things outside abyssea as it may be to difficult for you to handle.