Pray

[SpankWustler]

Well guys, if Aleste's math is wrong, you guys disagreeing should just show us where and why, and this whole argument would be over!

I agree with Aleste's math totally. I'd actually like to see the numbers for more spells because it looks like a good Cure IV beats the line Regen by a noticeable margin as well (not by NEARLY as much as Cure V, but it should come out ahead unless I really mucked things up).

I was referring to my own scribblings in notepad when I mentioned suspect math, since I didn't account for FFXI's relentless flooring process.

[Aleste]

:: Warning :: This post contains mathematics; TL;DR section at the end

Hrmm... there was me hoping to crush that argument... but alas~

As far as efficiency numbers go...

Regen 3, 20/tick, 64 MP, 5s casting time
Regen 3 (no gear, no merits - 400hp) 6.25 HP/MP
Regen 3 (no gear, merits - 500hp) 7.81 HP/MP
Regen 3 (gear, no merits - 575hp) 8.98 HP/MP
Regen 3 (gear, merits - 700hp) 10.93 HP/MP

Regen 4, 30/tick, 82 MP, 5s casting time
Regen 4 (no gear, no merits - 600hp) 7.31 HP/MP
Regen 4 (no gear, merits - 700hp) 8.53 HP/MP
Regen 4 (gear, no merits - 825hp) 10.06 HP/MP
Regen 4 (gear, merits - 975hp) 11.98 HP/MP

Low Quality WHM Cures
(601 power)

Cure 3, 252HP (88SS), 46 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 5.47 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 7.39 HP/MP

Cure 4, 508HP (177SS), 88 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 5.77 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 7.78 HP/MP

Cure 5, 885HP(221SS), 135 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 6.55 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 8.19 HP/MP

Cure 6, 1096HP(274SS), 227 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 4.83 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 5.28 HP/MP

High Quality WHM Cures
(811 power)

Cure 3, 306HP (107SS), 27 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 11.33 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 15.96 HP/MP

Cure 4, 621HP (217SS), 49 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 12.67 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 17.10 HP/MP

Cure 5, 1093HP(382SS), 68 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 16.07 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 21.68 HP/MP

Cure 6, 1452HP(400SS), 155 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 9.37 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 11.94 HP/MP

With 'gear' for Regen being Cleric's Briault and Orison Mitts +2.
'Low Quality WHM' for cures being Nobles body, Light Staff, AF3+1 head = 27% Potency
'High Quality WHM', /sch +49%pot, capped skill+merits, Orison Bliaud +2, Orison Pantaloons +2, +70MND gear




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hate math and TL;DR:

If you're a junk WHM;

Regen4(merits) 8.53
Cure5 (SS) 8.19
Regen3(merits) 7.81
Cure4 (SS) 7.78
Cure3 (SS) 7.39
Regen4 (no merits) 7.31
Cure5 (noSS) 6.55
Regen3 (no merits) 6.25
Cure4 (noSS) 5.77
Cure3 (noSS) 5.47
Cure6 (SS) 5.28
Cure6 (noSS) 4.83

If you're a pro WHM;

Cure5 (SS) 21.68
Cure4 (SS) 17.10
Cure5 (no SS) 16.07
Cure3 (SS) 15.96
Cure4 (no SS) 12.67
Regen 4 (merits) 11.98
Cure6 (SS) 11.94
Cure3 (no SS) 11.33
Regen 3 (merits) 10.93
Regen 4 (no merits) 10.06
Cure6 (no SS) 9.37
Regen 3 (no merits) 8.98

[Economizer]

The Regen spells really need revamped to be honest. Meriting them is a waste these days, and unless you are toying around or not wearing your gear, they are a waste of MP.

At this point, you are a terribly geared White Mage if Regen is MP efficient for you, and letting members sit in yellow MP just to use the spell is risky behavior. Playing safe and playing MP efficient are generally the indicators of a good White Mage.

Hrmm... there was me hoping to crush that argument... but alas~

I'm somewhat disappointed you didn't include Regen in that list. It can be useful for keeping people eating poison pots or charging Sublimation at full HP, although in the second case, they should have access to the spell themselves. Without gear/merits: 8.3 HP/MP, geared/merited: 22 HP/MP; /sch 9.6 HP/MP, gear/merit/sch: 25.3 HP/MP.

Of course, there aren't many situations where waiting this out would be a good idea. Also, Stoneskin can give something like 12-17HP/MP depending on gear/sub, which is a valid choice when self healing if casting time isn't an issue, but if it is, Regen is likely to be something you don't want to cast either. I highly doubt at this point there is a lot of good reasons to cast Regen aside from the ones mentioned here by me, and the handful mentioned by SpankWustler. The math backs up any logical points that could be made.

As a final side point, I decided to see if Regen was better for a well geared Scholar using Perpetuance (15.63 HP/MP) vs the numbers you gave for a well geared White Mage casting Regen III (10.93 HP/MP) and the numbers are very clear. This makes me wonder why Scholar didn't get Regen IV, since they're more of the DOT guys then White Mage...

[Vortex]

Edit: forget it, it's not worth the trouble anymore, it feels like trying to teach a mouse to play fetch, carry on.

i'll have to accept that WHM is to hard for certain people. and these forums proved it.

[SpankWustler]

Awesome. That goes above and beyond anything I asked for, and I'm very appreciative of seeing it all sorted out. Thanks a ton.

[Vortex]

Awesome. That goes above and beyond anything I asked for, and I'm very appreciative of seeing it all sorted out. Thanks a ton.

see what sorted out, what was already known and still had nothing to do with what was being said?

[Aleste]

No problem, I was going to draw a graph, but then I couldn't be bothered.

I'm actually quite surprised at the efficiency numbers, I'll probably start using Regen less now ~.~;

[Mirage]

Why, do you disagree with mathematics?

I'm sorry, but no matter how much you disagree with 2+2 equaling 4, it will always equal 4.

[Vortex]

Why, do you disagree with mathematics?

I'm sorry, but no matter how much you disagree with 2+2 equaling 4, it will always equal 4.

Sigh. Yes, because saying Regen is not useless is disagreeing with mathmatics. why do i even bother? the math he posted was irrelvent and had NOTHING to do with my main point i was making. but reading comphrehesion is pretty hard as well,

its more like you telling me 2+2 equals 4 and i'm talking about biology.

[Aleste]

Sigh. Yes, because saying Regen is not useless is disagreeing with mathmatics. why do i even bother? the math he posted was irrelvent and had NOTHING to do with my main point i was making. but reading comphrehesion is pretty hard as well,

I really hate writing long posts, so I'll be blunt.

Cure 3, and cure 5 in misery are vastly more efficient than Regen 4 WITH MERITS. In solace cure 3 is 1.5 TIMES more efficient, and cure 5 is TWICE as efficient. This is NOT accounting for the time taken to cast the appropriate spells, and the decreased time you'll spend mid-cast where you cannot quickly react to any changes in the situation.

Regen spells only ever had the efficiency going for them at the time of release. At the time they were the most efficient healing spell around, however its efficiency has barely increased with the release of Orison Mitts +2. However, with the release of Afflatus Solace, Orison Pantaloons +2 and Orison Bliaud +2 this has changed. Hell, there have been more cure cast time- gear released with each passing version, pushing us towards better, quicker and more efficient cure spells.

Over curing has become a bit of a null issue in correct gear, even if you over cure by ~50% with cure 5 in the above mathematics you will STILL end up with a higher efficiency than Regen 4 (with gear AND merits).

Don't get me wrong, Regen spells DO have a very VERY rare situational use and the only MP EFFICIENT time to cast it is when you're stark naked or when you have (specific pieces of) gear stripped from you.

i'll have to accept that WHM is to hard for certain people. and these forums proved it.

Yes, you are a lost cause... almost every poster in this thread seems to have a better understanding of white mage than you.