Thanks for Temper SE

[Economizer]

but if anyone is going to pull the "optimal" card

Red Mage is the best Haste caster (198% duration, with gear), the best Stunner (but they don't get the spell natively), and a competent Red Mage can make a fight much easier and safer (some of us value having no chance to wipe). Maybe a Red Mage won't make or break if you can do a fight, but I've seen fights go from Incredibly Tough to Easy Prey just by adding a Red Mage.

[Rayik]

Red Mage is the best Haste caster (198% duration, with gear), the best Stunner (but they don't get the spell natively), and a competent Red Mage can make a fight much easier and safer (some of us value having no chance to wipe). Maybe a Red Mage won't make or break if you can do a fight, but I've seen fights go from Incredibly Tough to Easy Prey just by adding a Red Mage.

Agreed, I'm not trying to downplay RDM's capabilities. I'm talking about pure "optimal", as in procs, healing, nuking, etc. I'm not hinting at things we can do well, just the "absolutes", since those get tossed around willy-nilly in these threads.

[Greatguardian]

Calling Red Mage a sub-optimal mage that brings nothing to groups only shows that you (plural) don't know a damn thing about the job and the potential it has in the right hands.

Red Mage is the single best support-class mage in the game, and does the job so damn well that it practically hogs the entire category to itself. Is it the best healer? No. Is it the best nuker? Well, not any more. Can it do a million things at once that bring a massive amount to the group without ever owning a sword? Damn straight. Ignoring its full utility just because your average full teal and/or joyeuse swinging retard wouldn't even be able to fathom its potential is fallacious at best and ignorant at worst.

[Rayik]

Calling Red Mage a sub-optimal mage that brings nothing to groups only shows that you (plural) don't know a damn thing about the job and the potential it has in the right hands.

Red Mage is the single best support-class mage in the game, and does the job so damn well that it practically hogs the entire category to itself. Is it the best healer? No. Is it the best nuker? Well, not any more. Can it do a million things at once that bring a massive amount to the group without ever owning a sword? Damn straight. Ignoring its full utility just because your average full teal and/or joyeuse swinging retard wouldn't even be able to fathom its potential is fallacious at best and ignorant at worst.

Whoa, whoa, simmer down now. So buffing is it then? That's what makes a RDM "optimal"? I don't have COR or BRD leveled, but I hear a lot of strong feedback that they are pretty serious buffers, not to mention what WHM can do, AoE wise. Refresh II is nice, but not necessary. Haste can be done by other jobs, even with just WHM as a subjob. I didn't say RDM brings nothing, I'm asking about what makes RDM so good that a specialist can't do it better?

Again, I'm not saying "RDM sucks", I'm just saying that we can't really argue how sub-optimal one facet of the job is, when the entire job itself is "sub-optimal." I'm not arguing that melee is as good as magic, because it's not. If it were, we wouldn't have 5 threads arguing the same things over and over.

IN my experience, "optimal" play does not want one job that can do multiple things well, it wants specialists that do it the best. That why you don't see a lot of DRK's get called on for red procs, even though they have a LOT of them, just a few less than WAR. Calling one side of the job sub-optimal is ignoring the other's shortcomings.

[Greatguardian]

That was more in response to Saevel than you, really. However I really do tire of hearing the "Red Mage just isn't a good mage" line all the time. It's ridiculous, as it's easily one of the most powerful and versatile jobs in the entire game.

A group of specialists is always better than a group of the same number of hybrids, however, as Duelle and others plainly point out (albeit unintentionally), Red Mage is not truly a hybrid. It is not a melee mage. It is simply a support mage, a different class of mage than White and Black. It's folly to compare what Red Mage can do to White Mages and Black Mages.

Red Mage has the unique ability to do everything at the same time. It has one of the most open and varied gear selections in the entire game. It has the single broadest always-available spell selection in the entire game.

A Red Mage will never be competing directly with a White Mage because Red Mages can do significantly more than just healing at any given time. Likewise, a Red Mage will never be competing directly with a Black Mage because Red Mages can do significantly more than just nuking at any given time. Likewise, you can't compare it with a Bard or a Corsair because it doesn't utilize non-magical buffs.

When I call Red Mage a Support Mage, I don't mean it's an enhancing mage. I mean it's a Party Support class. It fills gaps in existing support and fills a unique role in the party infrastructure. Red Mages aren't just backup healers or refreshers. Since Red Mage is so self-sufficient, they are capable of doing damn near anything the group needs them to do. Against weaker NMs and EM+ monsters, Red Mage is an ideal puller and crowd controller as well as a more than competent soloist. Against stronger NMs, Red Mage serves as a solid backup to the specialized mages while providing unique and powerful buffs to the group and, in some cases where not immune, enfeebling the opponent. I would much rather have a Red Mage and a White Mage against T4 Voidwatch than two White Mages unless the back to back Cure Vs were absolutely necessary.

[saevel]

you were the one that came in here saying it was effective. Parsing shows if that is actually true. Or would you prefer we go back to 2005 where we still though melee sucked and blm were WTF awesome because they casted a spell once per fight but that spell did super damage?


Basically, you don't have to parse, you don't have to care about your "l33t" DD. But it's rather silly for you to come in and post that you did good damage without any proof to back it up.

Except when the "fight" part of the fight is 30s, parsed data would mean absolutely nothing other then to determine Accuracy / Defense and such stats of the NM. Seriously, building TH takes longer on the NM then unleashing on it. So the argument of "deal optimal damage to make fight shorter" doesn't work. Next time I'm at event killer mass mobs I'll parse it, but on NM's it's just not worth it. Especially when the person with the highest "damage" will the PLD and THF's who are on it all the time.

[SpankWustler]

You make a valid point about the parsed data, if I'm right in thinking you're in a large group. One weapon skill and a dozen hits on each monster wouldn't make a very informative data set. I'd like to know which monsters your group is tanking with a Paladin that are squishy enough for a Red Mage to melee, though.

I don't get how anybody can think Red Mage isn't awesome in the back lines. The idea isn't to have unique spells no one else can can cast, it's to have access to a huge variety of spells all the time. Currently, some small groups prefer it over White Mage for Salvage, Limbus and similar content. Not because of Refresh II, but because those enemies are rarely a danger at 90 and stuff like Dia III and Blizzard IV really speed things up.

Red Mage wins out in these situations not by being a better healer, but by being more versatile through use of enfeebling and elemental magic. To me, that's the job finding it's niche perfectly.

[Supersun]

Red Mage wins out in Salvage because Phalanx II.

[Helel]

You "can" do without refresh II, you "can" do without 198% duration haste, you "can" do without any DD whatsoever and just have an aegis PLD swing at something for ages. You "can" do without a WHM if you choose to bring a battalion of cure IV. The list goes on. Just because you can do without something doesn't make it useless; in fact its utility isn't hindered in the slightest. This game, and any game really, is all about efficiency, and RDM will make your group more efficient. There is no other job with refresh II. That alone will make your mages more efficient. Dia 3 is essentially a +15% attack boost to all physical damage.

[Romanova]

Except when the "fight" part of the fight is 30s, parsed data would mean absolutely nothing other then to determine Accuracy / Defense and such stats of the NM. Seriously, building TH takes longer on the NM then unleashing on it. So the argument of "deal optimal damage to make fight shorter" doesn't work. Next time I'm at event killer mass mobs I'll parse it, but on NM's it's just not worth it. Especially when the person with the highest "damage" will the PLD and THF's who are on it all the time.

that's when you start creating controlled situations so you can parse to actually show some data. Basically, if you've got no data on how good it is, a lot of people just aren't going to believe you (or shouldn't).