Thanks for Temper SE

[saevel]

Nope stopped parsing once FFXI stopped being about "who does the most damage". At this point in the game, dealing damage is easy, surviving the NM is now the hard part. Hell most of the fight is a PLD and a THF or two on the NM with everyone off to the side. Once TH 9~10 is build the kill order is given and the NM dies 30~90 seconds later.

This idea of who can beat the hardest on a stone wall with an infinite amount of HP no longer works, heck it only worked for "merits" which has since become a non issue.

[Romanova]

Nope stopped parsing once FFXI stopped being about "who does the most damage". At this point in the game, dealing damage is easy, surviving the NM is now the hard part. Hell most of the fight is a PLD and a THF or two on the NM with everyone off to the side. Once TH 9~10 is build the kill order is given and the NM dies 30~90 seconds later.

This idea of who can beat the hardest on a stone wall with an infinite amount of HP no longer works, heck it only worked for "merits" which has since become a non issue.

you were the one that came in here saying it was effective. Parsing shows if that is actually true. Or would you prefer we go back to 2005 where we still though melee sucked and blm were WTF awesome because they casted a spell once per fight but that spell did super damage?


Basically, you don't have to parse, you don't have to care about your "l33t" DD. But it's rather silly for you to come in and post that you did good damage without any proof to back it up.

[Rayik]

Or, for you magey-mage type RDM's out there, if you want to talk about "optimal" "efficient" and "prudent", why would a party worry about forcing a "hybrid peg" into a "specialist hole", when they can just get a "specialist peg." Okay, those metaphors are awful, but get the point across.

For as much as people talk down about meleeRDM's "sub optimal" nature, I find it hilariously ironic many of the same people don't see how "sub optimal" they are by just being RDM in the first place.

Let's say I'm some random player building a party to go take down some big bad NM that you happen to need dead too, for whatever reason(gear, atma, whatever). Why on earth am I going to pick a RDM over a WHM, BLM, or BLU? What makes mage-only play style so special, that any other actual specialist job can't just replace you with?

Instead of jamming a square peg into a round hole and demanding that the hole be changed to a square shape, some people just go grab a round peg instead.

Really, I think we were the round peg for a special round hole(that sounds so wrong), but over time, the wood has warped and doesn't fit anymore. We just want to restore what was there in the first place.

[saevel]

Rayik,

About the only thing RDM currently offers groups is Refresh II and Dia III. Everything else can either be done better, or looks cool but is otherwise useless. CoolButInefficient

And when I say useless I mean they will have absolutely zero effect on the outcome of any group battle. You can remove them entirely and the group will still have the same results. Anything that ~might~ of had an effect on the outcome SE will make the monster immune to or otherwise incapable of being harmed by it. Even look at what they did to Saboteur, double the power of Slow II or Dia III was monstrously powerful, so they nerfed it (a 42% boost to everyone's attack made lots of NM battles a joke).

In fact I think that defines the RDM concept in general CoolButInefficient.

[Rayik]

Rayik,

About the only thing RDM currently offers groups is Refresh II and Dia III. Everything else can either be done better, or looks cool but is otherwise useless. CoolButInefficient

And when I say useless I mean they will have absolutely zero effect on the outcome of any group battle. You can remove them entirely and the group will still have the same results. Anything that ~might~ of had an effect on the outcome SE will make the monster immune to or otherwise incapable of being harmed by it. Even look at what they did to Saboteur, double the power of Slow II or Dia III was monstrously powerful, so they nerfed it (a 42% boost to everyone's attack made lots of NM battles a joke).

In fact I think that defines the RDM concept in general CoolButInefficient.

Exactly my point! I won't argue that our mage side is certainly viewed in higher regard than melee, and has a lot more uses, but if anyone is going to pull the "optimal" card, they are on the wrong forum altogether. Hybrids can't replace specialists, no not even mages.

[Economizer]

but if anyone is going to pull the "optimal" card

Red Mage is the best Haste caster (198% duration, with gear), the best Stunner (but they don't get the spell natively), and a competent Red Mage can make a fight much easier and safer (some of us value having no chance to wipe). Maybe a Red Mage won't make or break if you can do a fight, but I've seen fights go from Incredibly Tough to Easy Prey just by adding a Red Mage.

[Rayik]

Red Mage is the best Haste caster (198% duration, with gear), the best Stunner (but they don't get the spell natively), and a competent Red Mage can make a fight much easier and safer (some of us value having no chance to wipe). Maybe a Red Mage won't make or break if you can do a fight, but I've seen fights go from Incredibly Tough to Easy Prey just by adding a Red Mage.

Agreed, I'm not trying to downplay RDM's capabilities. I'm talking about pure "optimal", as in procs, healing, nuking, etc. I'm not hinting at things we can do well, just the "absolutes", since those get tossed around willy-nilly in these threads.

[Greatguardian]

Calling Red Mage a sub-optimal mage that brings nothing to groups only shows that you (plural) don't know a damn thing about the job and the potential it has in the right hands.

Red Mage is the single best support-class mage in the game, and does the job so damn well that it practically hogs the entire category to itself. Is it the best healer? No. Is it the best nuker? Well, not any more. Can it do a million things at once that bring a massive amount to the group without ever owning a sword? Damn straight. Ignoring its full utility just because your average full teal and/or joyeuse swinging retard wouldn't even be able to fathom its potential is fallacious at best and ignorant at worst.

[Rayik]

Calling Red Mage a sub-optimal mage that brings nothing to groups only shows that you (plural) don't know a damn thing about the job and the potential it has in the right hands.

Red Mage is the single best support-class mage in the game, and does the job so damn well that it practically hogs the entire category to itself. Is it the best healer? No. Is it the best nuker? Well, not any more. Can it do a million things at once that bring a massive amount to the group without ever owning a sword? Damn straight. Ignoring its full utility just because your average full teal and/or joyeuse swinging retard wouldn't even be able to fathom its potential is fallacious at best and ignorant at worst.

Whoa, whoa, simmer down now. So buffing is it then? That's what makes a RDM "optimal"? I don't have COR or BRD leveled, but I hear a lot of strong feedback that they are pretty serious buffers, not to mention what WHM can do, AoE wise. Refresh II is nice, but not necessary. Haste can be done by other jobs, even with just WHM as a subjob. I didn't say RDM brings nothing, I'm asking about what makes RDM so good that a specialist can't do it better?

Again, I'm not saying "RDM sucks", I'm just saying that we can't really argue how sub-optimal one facet of the job is, when the entire job itself is "sub-optimal." I'm not arguing that melee is as good as magic, because it's not. If it were, we wouldn't have 5 threads arguing the same things over and over.

IN my experience, "optimal" play does not want one job that can do multiple things well, it wants specialists that do it the best. That why you don't see a lot of DRK's get called on for red procs, even though they have a LOT of them, just a few less than WAR. Calling one side of the job sub-optimal is ignoring the other's shortcomings.

[Greatguardian]

That was more in response to Saevel than you, really. However I really do tire of hearing the "Red Mage just isn't a good mage" line all the time. It's ridiculous, as it's easily one of the most powerful and versatile jobs in the entire game.

A group of specialists is always better than a group of the same number of hybrids, however, as Duelle and others plainly point out (albeit unintentionally), Red Mage is not truly a hybrid. It is not a melee mage. It is simply a support mage, a different class of mage than White and Black. It's folly to compare what Red Mage can do to White Mages and Black Mages.

Red Mage has the unique ability to do everything at the same time. It has one of the most open and varied gear selections in the entire game. It has the single broadest always-available spell selection in the entire game.

A Red Mage will never be competing directly with a White Mage because Red Mages can do significantly more than just healing at any given time. Likewise, a Red Mage will never be competing directly with a Black Mage because Red Mages can do significantly more than just nuking at any given time. Likewise, you can't compare it with a Bard or a Corsair because it doesn't utilize non-magical buffs.

When I call Red Mage a Support Mage, I don't mean it's an enhancing mage. I mean it's a Party Support class. It fills gaps in existing support and fills a unique role in the party infrastructure. Red Mages aren't just backup healers or refreshers. Since Red Mage is so self-sufficient, they are capable of doing damn near anything the group needs them to do. Against weaker NMs and EM+ monsters, Red Mage is an ideal puller and crowd controller as well as a more than competent soloist. Against stronger NMs, Red Mage serves as a solid backup to the specialized mages while providing unique and powerful buffs to the group and, in some cases where not immune, enfeebling the opponent. I would much rather have a Red Mage and a White Mage against T4 Voidwatch than two White Mages unless the back to back Cure Vs were absolutely necessary.