[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

[Shiyo]

That's exactly how RDM and SCH healing works, we can mainheal stuff that.....evasion jobs can pretty much solo or can solo. Yay?

[Hyrist]

You can throw PUP out the window because its AI is retarded. Once again, a healing spell on a 23 second timer and requiring TP and locking them out of using any other support ability related to healing does not a healer make. If Cure V was on a 23 secone timer and you couldn't use Erase/na's in the meantime, do you really think anyone would bring a whm for anything?

*headdesk*

You're really not following.

You bring the listed jobs above for your acclaimed 'Cure V'.

23 second Cure V is nothing in these situations because you're divying up the cure load. In this case your DNC dose't need to have erase or need to care about anything else but to spot heavy damage and cure it. Satus removes are coverd by your present SCH or RDM and there's absolutely no need for Cure V on behalf of either of those jobs in the presence of a hybrid.

Atomoton AI is easy to understand. Status Removals first, then it cures itself/master (whoever has highest enmity), Then whoever has the highest enmity in the party in that order. Once you understand the rules it's easy to make it a potent cure presence.

It's that players are lazy and don't want to work beyond their zerg mentalities to figure these things out, or to actually make them work as they were designed.

And you've still not addressed the core argument here: Why are you asking for cure V when our damage mitigation is a more important (and more core) part of our class?

In the end all I'm hearing is "Whaaa we're not popular anymore!" and wanting Cure V so they can bump WHM back off the invite list for anything that's not HNMs, which also bumps off Hybrids off general party slots for more 'Pure DDs'.

What you're basically arguing for Hyrist is that our healing capacity should be limited to being useful on stuff that any evasion heavy class could solo with relative ease and no outside assistance. That's an extremely limited scope of usefulness

You've got the degree of limit wrong, but yes, Red Mages and Scholars curing capacity should be limited. I'd go so far as to say curing capacity in the game itself should be more limited than what it is, WHM included, but that ship has sailed. There doesn't need to be more than one healer class that is frankly OP in the healing department. Healing 'Capasity' can be filled by pairing a light healer with a job like Dancer, Puppetmater, Blue Mage, etc to split out the curing load for everything NOT required of a WHM to manage (which is basically HNM endgame.) That way, you MUST choose between a wider birth of combinations, rather than RDM, SCH, WHM. Because, flatly, not everyone is going to want to play a WHM, and, like any other prima job, it's not always available.

And a better choice than simply giving RDM more cure, is to give them MORE POTENT DEBUFFS. You could achieve the same results you desire through that route instead of pouting about Cure V, AND be more useful for high NM endgame in the same motion.

At the bare minimum, that route should be attempted first in the test server before SE caves and gives RDM and SCH a potentially very toxic spell.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The /headdesk is thinking the auto or Dnc are viable at using their cure V variants outside of... pretty much never for dnc, and if PUP AI was so 'easy to control' Pups wouldn't be clamoring for a fix to the automaton's behaviour. You're ignoring the fact for 23 seconds the DNC is completely incapable of supporting the party in -any- way whatsoever from using Waltz V. If your support is only good for casting one spell every 23 seconds then your support healing is pretty lol. I'm also confident the auto suffers from a similar problem to summoner elementals.

Wait are you suggesting a pt of Dnc + Whm + Rdm or Sch really? With Dnc using Waltz 5 once every 23 second to 'support' the party? Am I reading this right?

[SpankWustler]

It's not that players don't want to make things work, and it's not that players don't try to make these things work; it's that some things do not work. Plenty of people have tried to wring blood out of these stones, only to give up.

Curing Waltz V goes above and beyond a twenty-three second recast. It disables any and all Waltzes for twenty-three seconds. Congratulations, the guy with whom you're divvying up healing duties is now just another melee in range of various Area of Effect stuff for the next twenty-three seconds. Many a sad soul in many a sad subligar has used this ability once only to go back to "Curing Waltz III 4EVAR" because of this.

How effective a Soulsoother can be at healing depends more on the monster in question than the group in question. Also, a healer needs to be 100% reliable more than anyone in any role, and this isn't something a puppet can provide without staggering amounts of effort against even the easiest of content.

It's true that Blue Mage has some awesome spells to restore HP. I really like Blue Mage's unique take on healing with stuff like Peeonallofthem Embrace and (as of next week) White Wind. I think Blue Mage is a really good example of where not-White Mage jobs with healing capacity should stand, while Dancer and Puppetmaster are definitely not.

[Anucris]

would have been nice if it was pt member castable....
even so. its not a bad spell... and yes rdm is a weak melee
will this fix rdm weak melee? not at all... there is the problem
stack this with giving rdm an A sword skill (at least A- like blu), what seperates a job like pld from rdm should be A+ to A- not ~30 skill points (even more when u consider pld and blu get sword boosts from gear). our gear is highly favored to mage as well. i dunno bout it yet. we'll see i guess

[Scuro]

would have been nice if it was pt member castable....
even so. its not a bad spell... and yes rdm is a weak melee
will this fix rdm weak melee? not at all... there is the problem
stack this with giving rdm an A sword skill (at least A- like blu), what seperates a job like pld from rdm should be A+ to A- not ~30 skill points (even more when u consider pld and blu get sword boosts from gear). our gear is highly favored to mage as well. i dunno bout it yet. we'll see i guess

No, because RDM is a Buffer/Healer/Nuker class, with the CAPABILITY to solo DD and should not rival BLU, or else it would make the class irrelevant and a waste of designer time. This is why RDM does not get our DD WSs natively and why they are given a sword skill too low to rival our own. They also receive no native DD traits, therefore, it is not a DD class of any sort. The point of being a DD is that you are given traits or the capability to receive traits that enhance your DD capability. As most RDMs in this thread know, I'm the one that comes in when the post with a crown on it get s posted in. Hi, I'm Scuro, and I'll be putting out this fire today. BTW Shiyo a pleasure as always to see you fighting the good fight haha.

P.S
In defense of PUP's as a PUP enthusiast myself, there is nothing wrong with the AI when it comes to curing, just PUPs bitch when they have to work hard to actually be fantastic at the job as it is capable of. While PUP isn't the best main party curer, god damn can it cure people in a pinch (my cousin (PUP) kept me (BLU) healed against a pugil in golden salvage at 75 with his automaton as we duo'd it, and killed it). Of course it can't save someone that is taking damage like a ugly red headed step child. In short, PUPs want the ability to not be good at their job, and still be acknowledged as skilled at it.

[Kitkat]

du-du-du-duh~ Everyone fear, Scuro is here! Misconceptions and skewed view of a job he has at lvl 47 is his specialty, cause he obviously knows how to play it better than a lvl 95 career rdm!

Must we go over this again, you're labeling a class based off the gear available to it. Same thing can be said about blu due to the gear they have available including the buffs and nukes which also has gear tailored to this form of play in the form of AF3. Heck, in some situations a blu nuke is far superior to that of a rdm nuke, we also have cures equal to Cure V and Curaga IV~V, the only draw back being the hate generated...oh wait...rdm has that same problem. Blu has buffs that can in some cases only be transferred over to others by use of a JA....oh wait, rdm has that same problem. About the only thing that seperates blu from rdm difinitively is the Physical damage spells, higher sword skill, and access to certain ws natively. Then again the WS difference becomes negligible if both have Almace. Gear has been added that brings rdm haste and WS sets up some this time also, leaving the only gap primarily present is the Attack and ~+10-20 dex difference depending on the layout of the blu's spell set. So the comparison isn't so much Apples to oranges, as it is Lemon to Lime.

Then you consider the fact Rdm has access to gear that can also increase Crit Dmg (Onerios Knife), which if I recall was found to be 5~10% increase, new da% on a slot they can afford to leave in place over other options (neck slot). New swords? Rdm are on those too. There is a variety of gear set combinations becoming available to rdm as of late that also increases the main attribute for CDC. So, unless you are willing to put the time and effort into leveling rdm, getting a gear set and ws set situated as well as use tools available to rdm in spell form to further enhance melee damage on rdm....you really have no right to come into the forums, crown or not, and state what a rdm can and cannot do. You have no first hand experience, you're wholly biased in opinion, and the roles you state rdm fits perfectly you fail to see that blu fits them also. Do everyone a favor and come back when you actually can apply a firmly weighted and unbiased knowledge to a discussion.

Also, blu gets -nothing- natively in the form of passive traits. All traits are subject to Subjob, merits, or the combination of spells, some of which are absolutely useless in practice and require sacrificing something else in order to gain (wow, that sounds similar to what rdm has to do to get passive traits they don't have natively, doesn't it?). All of the traits blu is capable of attaining is "gimped" compared to the real passive traits. SE even stated that, despite general acceptance, the Double attack trait blu is able to create is 7% compared to War's 10% native passive trait.

[cidbahamut]

Misconceptions and skewed view of a job he has at lvl 47 is his specialty, cause he obviously knows how to play it better than a lvl 95 career rdm!

It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

Doesn't take away from the posts multiple points though.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Enmity is technically less of a problem due to Tranquil Heart + I know Rdm can now cap cure potency and have ~-50 enmity in gear as well.