[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

[Kitkat]

Step out of Abyssea and see how long a 61 WHM can hold over RDM in endgame situations. This isn't much different than people saying anyone who subs WHM is as good a healer, as RDM's healing isn't all about raw curative power, but how Fast Cast helps them get cures out faster while debuffs keep damage from coming less often. A 61 WHM will not be landing Slow or Paralyze, nor have anywhere near the MP longevity or potential cure potency.

Considering most whm to any endgame outside of abyssea will always be 90+, this has little merit. Considering that, this is technically inaccurate ever since whm gained the passive trait Divine Benison. In conjunction with this passive, merits to lower recast on cure, and gear that gives additional -cure casing time they have actually reached the same casting speeds as rdm has with 1-4 line and near instance cast for V and VI. The only time my whm has run into MP efficiency issues is when curing more than 8 people without any other back up. Ever since /rdm came along with refresh and convert not to mention upwards of 5mp/tic worth of gear to swap into and gear that actually lowers the cost of cures (returns 5% of cured hp back to mp) even out of abyssea it isn't an issue to keep mp through longer fights. On top of this Whm also has Regen IV and Curaga I-V to return hp far more effectively.

The only time my rdm has really seemed to pull ahead is when a constant stream of cures needs to be sent out, but those situations only appeared if someone couldn't listen to a fight strategy and were being incompetent. Not to mention eventually it down-spirals due to the limited choices of cure/hp restorative spells available to rdm.

[Seriha]

I have no doubt 90+ WHMs are in a good place. I was just focusing on how a 61 WHM or anyone not RDM or SCH /WHM isn't THAT good.

[Economizer]

Don't undervalue yourself. Not every White Mage has a ton of Refresh gear, and even those that do definitely benefit from having a Red Mage Refresh II them (especially since many White Mages sub Scholar and have to rely on Sublimation otherwise). While I can manage MP decently in WoE with gear as a White Mage, I definitely miss my Red Mage friends (I also didn't 5/5 Devotion for nothing). And heaven forbid I try to level there with my terribly geared Summoner.

That said, I'm thinking that there should be more ways to boost the effectiveness of Refresh II then just the AF3 pants, especially since Bards and Corsairs have so much Refresh to cast these days. Perhaps Refresh II should grant an extra point per tic per 100 Enhancing Magic skill?

I have no doubt 90+ WHMs are in a good place. I was just focusing on how a 61 WHM or anyone not RDM or SCH /WHM isn't THAT good.

To be fair, SMN/WHM, since they cap cure potency. BRD/WHM can do it now too, and since they can cast a decent amount of Refresh, although I fully expect them to go /RDM with Cure IV and Haste, for the Fast Cast. I could mention BLU as well, but they excel for different reasons.

Of course, all of these jobs (except maybe BLU) have been asked to main cure in a party at some point, and support cure for events too. I'd go on, but the idea that a 61 WHM can outheal a Red Mage without a Refresh source is laughable, and moot since nobody invites a 61 White Mage to an event unless they really don't want to invite other people.

[saevel]

Personally I'd just want SE to create a RDM line of state enfeebling spells and not make NM's resistant to them. I've said it before but it bears repeating.

Attack-Down
Defense-Down
Magic-Attack Down
Magic-Defense Down
Evasion-Down
Accuracy-Down
Magic-Evasion-Down
Magic-Accuracy-Down
Crit-Rate-Down

And then base STAT enfeebles
Reduce-STR
Reduce-VIT
Reduce-DEX
Reduce-AGI
Reduce-MND
Reduce-INT
Reduce-CHR

The BLM and DRK versions both have serious side effects (C and D skill respectively) along with poor scaling.

Those would make me a happy camper.

[tyrantsyn]

Personally I'd just want SE to create a RDM line of state enfeebling spells and not make NM's resistant to them. I've said it before but it bears repeating.

Attack-Down
Defense-Down
Magic-Attack Down
Magic-Defense Down
Evasion-Down
Accuracy-Down
Magic-Evasion-Down
Magic-Accuracy-Down
Crit-Rate-Down

And then base STAT enfeebles
Reduce-STR
Reduce-VIT
Reduce-DEX
Reduce-AGI
Reduce-MND
Reduce-INT
Reduce-CHR

The BLM and DRK versions both have serious side effects (C and D skill respectively) along with poor scaling.

Those would make me a happy camper.

I think SE would sooner bring Oracle out to ffxi before giving us these. But that's not to say I don't love the idea. having half of these would even be great.

[Kitkat]

Eh, I think refresh II is fine the way it is actually. Coupled with gear effects (a whm or a rdm has at least 2-3 pieces easily) it isn't too hard to get 9~12mp/tic outside of abyssea. If we were still stuck using refresh and it wasn't available via sub then I could see a change like that being a good idea. Honestly, I've rarely ever had the chance to be pair with a rdm (or the few I did forgot to refresh II on occasions) let alone two jobs (cor brd or rdm) that could stack refresh options. In the rare chance that does occur, you're then capable of getting 10~15mp/tic or greater if all 3 are together. Like I said though, that is a rare occurrence. Given this I can't see the need for the potency of Refresh II to scale with enhancing magic.

As for the new line of enfeebles, hmmm. The acc/eva/att/etc ones kinda exist already, but were given to blu instead (not that many really use them even if they set them). You lost me for a second about the reduce-stat line since it almost sounded like you were comparing them to drks absorb-stat which they have good skill rating for since it works off dark magic skill. Given that, I seriously doubt if they made this line that drk would even get it, but blm might...though they already have spells similar to this in the form of choke/burn/drown/etc and is based of elemental skill and has DoT effect.

Still would hope that SE reforms the Tier II enfeebles by making them actual scrolls and instead making Tier II merits "enhance potency" of said enfeeble types. It just doesn't make much sense that a job that has A+ enfeebling has to unlock spells of this type, and at a limited choice range, rather than learn them. Especailly when they aren't extremely strong considering certain other enfeebling spells/songs brd or blu get.

[saevel]

Eh, I think refresh II is fine the way it is actually. Coupled with gear effects (a whm or a rdm has at least 2-3 pieces easily) it isn't too hard to get 9~12mp/tic outside of abyssea. If we were still stuck using refresh and it wasn't available via sub then I could see a change like that being a good idea. Honestly, I've rarely ever had the chance to be pair with a rdm (or the few I did forgot to refresh II on occasions) let alone two jobs (cor brd or rdm) that could stack refresh options. In the rare chance that does occur, you're then capable of getting 10~15mp/tic or greater if all 3 are together. Like I said though, that is a rare occurrence. Given this I can't see the need for the potency of Refresh II to scale with enhancing magic.

As for the new line of enfeebles, hmmm. The acc/eva/att/etc ones kinda exist already, but were given to blu instead (not that many really use them even if they set them). You lost me for a second about the reduce-stat line since it almost sounded like you were comparing them to drks absorb-stat which they have good skill rating for since it works off dark magic skill. Given that, I seriously doubt if they made this line that drk would even get it, but blm might...though they already have spells similar to this in the form of choke/burn/drown/etc and is based of elemental skill and has DoT effect.

Still would hope that SE reforms the Tier II enfeebles by making them actual scrolls and instead making Tier II merits "enhance potency" of said enfeeble types. It just doesn't make much sense that a job that has A+ enfeebling has to unlock spells of this type, and at a limited choice range, rather than learn them. Especailly when they aren't extremely strong considering certain other enfeebling spells/songs brd or blu get.

We know they exist already, monsters use them all the time. BLU's kinda sorta have them, but their effect tends to be random and often long casting and not very efficient. I'm talking a straight spell that only does that effect.

Both BLM and DRK have a form of -stat down, both have horrible side effects. For BLM its that they have elements that are incompatible and have horrible scaling. 150+ INT is only -13 stat, and you can't get -AGI and -VIT at the same time.

For DRK its that they have horrible duration, the effect starts to wear immediately upon cast making it useful for a handful of seconds only. RDM also has D skill in dark magic which limits our ability to use the Absorb spells.

I'm wanting a real enfeebling skill based version that reduces the stats directly.

If SE is wanting us to be masters of enfeebling then they need to be serious about it. No half stepping or half way measure will work.

[Kitkat]

My problem with it is this: Even if SE decided to go this route, how useful would they even be for endgame? Almost everything is extremely resistant or immune to certain spells and in some cases can only have dia or bio landed on them. A vast majority of newer NM mobs are even immune to Bind/gravity hindering crowd control efforts (makes trying to fix WoE cluster pull mistakes impossible) so who is to say that any of these spells would even have a use against higher tier monsters?

In areas that don't require long fights you won't be fighting anything long enough to make the enfeeble really worth the mp to cast it. Seriously, even with high Skill ranges for the versions that already exist 9/10 cast will be completely resisted or in the cast of absorb-line partially resisted making the effect only last mere seconds.

I don't want a whole line of spells that is effectively moot in large-scale fights and currently that is one of the biggest issues with rdm. A+ Skill and being blocked due to immunity traits on large-scale NM. Some of these spells we already have: Def-down? Dia I-III. Attack-down? Bio I-III. Acc-down? Blind I-II. Evasion-Down? Gravity. Biggest problem is....immunity/resist or hard cap cause we are still using spells we've had since before lvl 50 that isn't scaling with enfeebling magic well, or we were forced to waste merit points on 2 tier II/III spells that should be turned into scrolls since the lvl 75 cap increase.

Instead of giving a new line that basically does the same thing they should rework the existing spells or give rdm something that actually allows them to land these spells where others can't no matter how high their enfeebling can go. Something like a passive trait that surpasses otherwise immunities, but instead of being immune the monster will only be highly resistant. I can understand some immunities not being affected by this still, but currently there are far too many immunities that has caused Rdm to be near obsolete for enfeebling.

[saevel]

Kitkat go back and reread what I posted.

create a RDM line of state enfeebling spells and not make NM's resistant to them

You guys asked for enfeebles, thus I present enfeebles. Stat reductions are the only enfeebles that won't break the game and thus get nerfed into oblivion.

[Kitkat]

Yes, but you aren't SE. They are notorious for taking a good idea, turning around and implementing it and making it weaker or less useful (Decoy shot, nerfed heavy strike, etc). So regardless of what you want out of this line there is possibility it will still end up being just as useless and previously existing iterations of the proposed spells. As already shown, other source versions exist and aren't useful enough to cast regularly because of duration, resist rate, or cast/recast of the spell.

Thing about spell ideas is you have to put a lot of "what if" into the planning. Say they do add these spells and they are good, but they forget to think about previous existing spells that create similar effects. Players figure out that they can stack and begin to do so creating a new form of unexpected balance issues. Thus said spells become weaker, or then can't be stacked causing one to overwrite the other creating a "uselessness" to the spells introduced since they now are only worth while for messing around or low-man lesser NM fights.

Call it pessimism, but SE is very good at making something sound good with hype, then failing to really deliver after implementation.