dev1024 - healing magic

[Aequis]

Cure V is WHM-only for several reasons. I don't want to see it on either SCH or RDM, because they simply don't need it and that would be overstepping a WHM's territory. The simple fact is, if you didn't have Abyssea and everything that brings (larger HP/MP pools, reason to cure faster for more, almost limitless MP) then you wouldn't be asking for this spell.

Everyone seems to forget that using Cure V outside of Abyssea is a fail-safe to keep people alive and that you very rarely need to use it. Then again, most WHMs are unskilled and just spam higher tier cures, then somehow feel surprised to have run out of MP. They don't know how to do the job without three Refresh atma. I can't think of a situation where you'd need to be using Cure V and Cure VI constantly outside of Abyssea, so to think of even giving these spells to other jobs - who would use them even less - smacks of pointlessness.

Let's not lose focus on which job is best at what. We really need more uniqueness to each individual job, and an end to this pointless line-blurring that makes all of the mages somewhat similar.

[SpankWustler]

If higher tier VoidWatch stuff and some of the new Notorious Monsters in Dynamis are any indication, pretty much everything new with a funny name is going to hit like a truck full of dynamite. Without twice as much HP, more jobs gaining more ways to keep people alive is even more important.

I agree with most of your other points, though. Cure V (or Cure VI, since it is and always will be closer to Cure IV's MP efficiency) for all would be the least interesting solution by far.

[Jerbob]

Personally agree with a comment someone made earlier in the thread - SE needs to make supporting jobs like RDM worth having in a party instead of a DD, bard or what have you. As I understand it, RDM and SCH are supposed to be jack-of-all-trades who fill gaps and do a bit of everything to earn their spot in the party - you use ALL your magic skills (and for RDM, your melee weapon skills if you've geared for it) to bring everyone to a new level of strength. THIS is what I think RDM and SCH both should be and would like to be, not a stand in for BLM or WHM. Working in tandem is hugely preferable to working against one another.

As a WHM, I am fortunate to be in an event static with an absolutely incredible RDM who does just that, and he is flexible enough to take on anything thrown at him - he can kite, crowd control, stun, support heal, land crippling enfeebles, effectively deal elemental damage, and just generally keep everyone ticking over. He's got PDT- gear and melee gear. In a pinch he can step in and keep things going if me or a BLM are in trouble. This is what I think RDM should excel in.

I think SE could really do with boosting his ability as an enhancer. The AoE Boost-XXX spells could have gone to RDM and been made targettable like Curaga, and things like this double attack spell RDM is supposed to be getting might help here. Make these spells long duration, easy to use and possibly AoE so RDM aren't locked into another haste/refresh cycle, and make them worth using to they really add to a party's strength.

Once SE manages to get the specialists (WHM and BLM) and the support (RDM, SMN, SCH) to a point where players will accept them being in the same party, THEN we can start looking at "overpowering" one job in favour of another - eg things like Haste II - because WHM and RDM (for example) will work so well together than RDM's Haste II won't be reason to dump WHM. Then it won't MATTER that WHM is the only job with Cure V because support mages will already have their places in a party regardless.

More practically, even with this vision I agree that RDM could use a small bonus to healing prowess. With increasing HP, Cure IV is the new Cure III and, even with Tranquil Heart, I think the enmity could stand to be dropped further. There are lots of other possibilities - modifying Regen so that it'll keep working in the background on people with full HP and then restore that lump of "regenned" HP when that player takes damage, for example, or other damage mitigation tools. Oh, and as a WHM even I'm annoyed that RDM lost having exclusive rights to Addle.

So that's my take on this. Focusing not on "RDM needs Cure V to stand in for WHM", but "RDM needs special new spells so that it'll be indisputibly worth having -alongside- WHM, regardless of Cure V".

[DebbieGibson]

When have people not wanted a rdm next to whm? I always had rdm with whm in events for refresh/dia3/haste/debuffs at 75, and the same will be true at 99*.


*assuming lv99 is not in abyssea

[Jerbob]

Well the main thing that people seem to be saying here is that they're not invited to things because a WHM is already there, so apparently in at least some situations RDM + WHM is not seen as desirable. It's like at 75 cap - people often wouldn't want a RDM and a WHM in any experience points party above level 55ish, though it would be wanted in certain endgame situations. If SE are able to make two magic casting jobs work in the same party across the board (and not just in certain situations) then it'd help solve some of RDM's problems.

It's just important to get the balance right; I think that WHM's lack of MP recovery abilities at 75 was supposed to encourage WHM to team up with a support caster, but because RDM's abilities were already adequate for experience this didn't work. At 90, WHM doesn't really lack anything so there's no need for support casters unless you need really powerful enfeebling or enhancing (eg. powerful NMs). Obviously this is a very black and white example, with some exceptions, but the principle stands. If SE can change this so that support offers something really powerful all the time (for example some new, unique enhancing effects) then those support casters will always have something valuable that WHM lacks, and vice versa (Cure V). This makes both specialist and support casters' places in a party more assured in all scenarios, including those in which RDM has been devalued by the playerbase. Making these fun to use - long duration, AoE, possible connection to Composure for RDM, allowing meleeing and so on - would be instrumental in making these changes work.

The tl;dr would be that support casters like RDM need to be able to earn their place in a party -whatever that party is doing-, not just in certain situations, otherwise we're stuck with parties without support casters and that's not good for anyone (except DDs). Just as a bard can replace a DD solely through enhancing, so should a RDM be able to though applying its many trades in equal measure.

=edit= Obviously the critical thing here is to make sure that any enhancements to support casting or specialist casting jobs don't break the balance. Give RDM access to Cure V as well as some powerful unique enhancements and WHM's position isn't assured, and vice versa. Maintaining the balance that would allow two casters per party (including combinations like RDM + RDM, for example) is of absolute importance to stop certain casting jobs being marginalised.

[Lilia]

Cure V is WHM-only for several reasons. I don't want to see it on either SCH or RDM, because they simply don't need it and that would be overstepping a WHM's territory. The simple fact is, if you didn't have Abyssea and everything that brings (larger HP/MP pools, reason to cure faster for more, almost limitless MP) then you wouldn't be asking for this spell.

Everyone seems to forget that using Cure V outside of Abyssea is a fail-safe to keep people alive and that you very rarely need to use it. Then again, most WHMs are unskilled and just spam higher tier cures, then somehow feel surprised to have run out of MP. They don't know how to do the job without three Refresh atma. I can't think of a situation where you'd need to be using Cure V and Cure VI constantly outside of Abyssea, so to think of even giving these spells to other jobs - who would use them even less - smacks of pointlessness.

Let's not lose focus on which job is best at what. We really need more uniqueness to each individual job, and an end to this pointless line-blurring that makes all of the mages somewhat similar.

whm overstepping rdm or sch more as rdm and sch in whm territory.
quickcast cure/statuscure, statuscure aoe, refresh, convert,addle, and and and.... list is long what whm have become after 75.

oh.. i find that idea ok- anyone say cure5 not longer mnd base and with a cap.

[Eth]

11 pages and ignorant white mages still don't understand why giving Cure V to RDM and SCH would not turn those jobs into the new WHM.

[SIZE="7"]CURESKIN[/SIZE]

No, it's not just an extra 300 HP that effectively raises the target's HP by that amount for a short period of time if the target was cured to full. It's that, plus
[SIZE="7"]
no spell interruption[/SIZE]

And that means that your NIN or THF tank can get their shadows back up even as they're getting hit by a truck. And that means that the battle is under control again with one Cure V, whereas that RDM or SCH main healer would probably have to follow the Cure V with Cure 4 or another Cure V if ichi gets interrupted and Ni isn't up yet.

I think any more discussion of this is a waste of time until and unless people finally understand that point.

[cidbahamut]

Cureskin isn't the only thing White Mage has going for it, but it is pretty darn enormous. It's more or less an extra +25% cure potency above the cap and is exceptionally useful in all situations. It's not even the only thing White Mage brings to the table, which puts White Mage that much further ahead of everyone else.

Seriously, White Mage is so far ahead of the game here that no one else is even a speck on the horizon when it comes to filling the role of healer.

[Aequis]

whm overstepping rdm or sch more as rdm and sch in whm territory.
quickcast cure/statuscure, statuscure aoe, refresh, convert,addle, and and and.... list is long what whm have become after 75.

oh.. i find that idea ok- anyone say cure5 not longer mnd base and with a cap.

You saying, that WHM and SCH etc. took a lot from us, by using RDM as a sub?

I'm aware of everything we lost, but this is where the problem starts. My first job to lv.75 was Red mage, and despite having ten other jobs at lv.90 I still consider it my "main". We did end up losing a lot of our specialities at each level uncap, some of which should have been handled better.

SCH as a sub has been restricted in terms of what SCH main has, and I don't quite get the WHM/RDM thing everyone seems so fond of. If you're shedding MP in Abyssea so fast that you need Convert, well...the only thing I have ever used /RDM for on WHM is NMs that need Dispel often (eg. Carabosse if you're the sole mage).

The answer though, isn't to ask for spells that other jobs already have in an attempt to make us somewhat "equal". The last time SE did that to us, they pretty much decimated our flexibility and uniqueness, because people complained we were "too powerful". The solution lies in giving back to each job a specific role, something that defines them and makes them stand out. Whatever you can do outside of the norm with whatever you have, ie. soloing certain NMs as RDM, that's fine and as far as I'm concerned, is a bonus to us.

We don't need to be playing "catch-up" with any job in terms of what we can do. We need clearly defined specific roles, and the giving of JSE spells or abilities to other jobs needs to stop, else there'll be a point where we're all playing the same thing - "Generic mage".

[Ahmed]

I don't mind not having Cure V, as a RDM, since we are not supposed to be healers. That is a White Mage's job. But we should get things that make us wanted in parties/missions/HNM hunts, because the way it is now..
Especially with Refresh Atmas and all the stats buffs from Atmas.. most people are not interested in RDMs anymore, not even for debuffs because Atmas make them too strong to worry about debuffs.

So yeah, Cure V doesn't really matter, but don't cast us out! XD
Give us something that'd make people want a RDM.