dev1024 - healing magic

[SpankWustler]

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

I never called you any names, I just high-lighted the things you misunderstood. I guess it would have been more polite to give a full explanation, but I'm not sure where to start when the effect of Tier II en-spells are mentioned as something of any worth or value. There's a huge gulf between stuff it's safe to hit with a thing and stuff that has high magic evasion, even if the effect of the spells was worthwhile.

I'm sure they don't think it's the only way, but they're right in thinking it definitely helps. My White Mage with mediocre equipment can cure 1000 HP and provide 250 Stoneskin with the most MP efficient cure in the game. With better equipment, it would provide 350 Stoneskin. Identical to the cap on the actual spell, although with a lower duration.

Red Mage or Scholar can cure about 500-600 HP with less MP efficiency and more enmity gained. They lose out in every way. If Red Mage had more substantial defensive buffs they could cast on others, this would be okay. If Scholar had anything particularly useful in Light Arts beyond Light Weather, this would be okay. However, they do not.

I think Cure V itself just comes up so often because it's the easiest and most obvious solution. One preexisting spell is added to two spell lists, and KABLOOWIE! there's more than one viable healer for new content again.

I think it goes a bit beyond that even. If you boil it down to its base components the argument is over whether or not there should be any job other than White Mage that is capable of filling the role of healer.

Pretty much this. I won't fault the opinion of people who understand things well enough to say "There's only one viable healer for a lot of content right now, and I'm cool with that. I'd rather Red Mage and/or Scholar get other things to work better in tandem with White Mage." I'm not sure what other things they have in mind, especially for a Scholar using Light Arts, but I won't tear into anybody who has an accurate perception of things.

I just can't stand people who march proudly into topics, scream "FAST CAT REFROSH RUPTURE", then elaborate on their points by imagining a game with the same spell and ability names as FFXI but totally different mechanics.

[Sasaraixx]

I never called you any names, I just high-lighted the things you misunderstood. I guess it would have been more polite to give a full explanation, but I'm not sure where to start when the effect of Tier II en-spells are mentioned as something of any worth or value. There's a huge gulf between stuff it's safe to hit with a thing and stuff that has high magic evasion, even if the effect of the spells was worthwhile.

I'm sure they don't think it's the only way, but they're right in thinking it definitely helps. My White Mage with mediocre equipment can cure 1000 HP and provide 250 Stoneskin with the most MP efficient cure in the game. With better equipment, it would provide 350 Stoneskin. Identical to the cap on the actual spell, although with a lower duration.

Red Mage or Scholar can cure about 500-600 HP with less MP efficiency and more enmity gained. They lose out in every way. If Red Mage had more substantial defensive buffs they could cast on others, this would be okay. If Scholar had anything particularly useful in Light Arts beyond Light Weather, this would be okay. However, they do not.

I think Cure V itself just comes up so often because it's the easiest and most obvious solution. One preexisting spell is added to two spell lists, and KABLOOWIE! there's more than one viable healer for new content again.



Pretty much this. I won't fault the opinion of people who understand things well enough to say "There's only one viable healer for a lot of content right now, and I'm cool with that. I'd rather Red Mage and/or Scholar get other things to work better in tandem with White Mage." I'm not sure what other things they have in mind, especially for a Scholar using Light Arts, but I won't tear into anybody who has an accurate perception of things.

I just can't stand people who march proudly into topics, scream "FAST CAT REFROSH RUPTURE", then elaborate on their points by imagining a game with the same spell and ability names as FFXI but totally different mechanics.

I would like your post twice if I could.

The question of whether or not WHM should be the *only* primary healer in the game is a debate that I am willing to entertain. But don't stroll in here and say "you have enspell II to add to the party." I know some WHM are concerned about losing their place as *the* best healer in the game. I have WHM leveled too! I have all 3 of the jobs in question leveled. Let me tell you, WHM brings so much to the table that even giving SCH or RDM Cure V will not change that. Even before the level cap, this was the case. The only area WHM suffered was Meripo parties because of RDM MP efficiency. (It still got more invites than SCH though.) In any other event, WHM always had a place.

MP efficiency is not really a problem for just about any mage job these days. The new equip, subjob options and abilities have made most of those concerns a lot less pressing.

I am of the opinion that WHM should be the best choice for the main healing slot in just about every situation. However, I would like both RDM and SCH to be *adequate* second choices to fill that spot. Currently, that is not the case in Abyssea or Voidwatch. Now, how they decide to go about doing this is up in the air.

Much to the dismay of some of you, the dev team has not ruled out the possibility of adding a higher tier cure at some point. They've said as much in their post. This seems like the easiest fix, but let's be honest, it is also the least creative and does very little to differentiate the 3 jobs. I would love if they developed a healing helix type of spell for SCH that was actually viable and buffed Light Arts and the new spells to actually be potent. What if the TP down spells they mentioned noticeably reduced the amount of TP moves an NM used or if the Animus spells were useful? How about additional bonuses to weather spells? It would be amazing if RDM received enhancing spells that sufficiently buffed the group and enfeebles that sufficiently debuffed the mob so that Cure IV would be enough to keep the group alive.

As you can see, in order to fill in for that WHM, both the SCH and RDM will have to work a lot harder and utilize all of the tools at their disposal. I have NO problems with this. I don't think any RDM or SCH in this thread wants to replace WHM. I think they would just like a reason to be invited!

Again, the content is changing as we move out of Abyssea. From what I've seen thus far though, while player HP pools are returning to normal, NM difficulty is increasing greatly. Both jobs need to bring something more to the table to warrant a spot on the team. SCH really brings nothing to the table as things stand now. RDM is there to Refresh the WHM and toss out extra Hastes. Something has to be done about this.

[Lilia]

when all in the party in red numbers, can a rdm cure5 save all?

Now i can save maybe 1-2 with cure 4 before next aoe kill the rest.
And try one time spam cure4... 100% selfkill.
rdm cure5 can never replace a whm with curaga.

when i read whm posts, i think the whm dont know what the have become after 75!

[Phafi]

when all in the party in red numbers, can a rdm cure5 save all?

Now i can save maybe 1-2 with cure 4 before next aoe kill the rest.
And try one time spam cure4... 100% selfkill.
rdm cure5 can never replace a whm with curaga.

when i read whm posts, i think the whm dont know what the have become after 75!

How did your whole party get into red?

[Patrik]

if SE is serious about making RDM a big time buffer/debuffer then I'm fine with no cure V... but if that new spell "Temper" is self-target only then I'm gonna be pissed... I'm bothered that they see us as the master of buffing while we are designed to only buff ourselves (/sch only works for so much)

[Crimson_Slasher]

See thats what a lot of whms see us and sch as, competition, sch and blm see one another as nuking competition (to a degree mind you, and while sch cant nuke harder, with good strategem use and timing they can self skillchain and magicburst with nukes.) But as it stands, just like some rdm state, cure V will not replace whm, can it in some situations? Sure! All? Nope! A lot of people talk about spell economics in ffxi, so i will too.

Rdm/whm Vs Whm/rdm Vs Sch/rdm
Curing power:
-Rdm: in this setup at 90-95, rdm gets 4 native cures, and 3 aoe (curaga, curaga II, curaja) as well as 2 regens
-Sch: pocketing 4 full time and 3 regens
-Whm: cure 1-6 aga 1-4(5), cura 1-2 and 4 regens, as well as more potency gear AND Solace's stoneskin effect.
Summary: Even getting Cure V, whm has a whopping 4 more types of curing, solace's skin, and potency gear to overshadow rdm/sch cure power (whom at most if i read right can get 43% if they use every augmentable piece of gear for it)

Buffs:
-Rdm: Protect/shell 1-5, regen 1-2, enspells(self only) Bar-element/status spells(self only,) Stoneskin/blink/aquaveil/phalanx/gain-spells/spikes(all natively self only), refresh 1-2, phalanx II, Protect/shell 1-2(3 protect at 90 i believe?), and haste.
-Sch: Protect/shell 1-5, regen 1-3, tier 1 enspells, refresh, stoneskin, aquaveil, blink, spikes, bar-element and status, regain, hate up, hate down, Stormsurge storms, Klimaform.
-Whm Protect/shell 1-5, protectra/shellra 1-5, regen 1-4, auspice, stoneskin, blink, aquaveil, phalanx, refresh, Boost-spells, haste.
Summary: Okay, shorter list, but right off the bat, you notice, that aside from a few odds and ends like haste, theyre all single target and most natively not offered to other jobs without accession, while white mage can do the ones we can normally cast on others (sans haste) better and for less mp, when it comes to spell economics, buying in bulk for a discount beats saving 10% on each unit (60% savings after it all vs Apx 500% savings if you are casting on 6 people.)

Debuffs:
-Rdm: Sleep 1-2, poison 1-2, dia/bio 1-3, para 1-2, slow 1-2, blind 1-2, flash, break, gravity, bind, addle.
-Sch: Sleep 1-2, poison (maybe 2/rdm?) dia/bio 1-2, para, slow, blind, break, gravity, bind, and lets lump in drain/aspir.
-Whm: Sleep/repose, poison (maybe 2/rdm?) dia/bio 1-2, para, slow, blind, flash, gravity, bind.
Summary: rdm asnd sch are virtually in the same boat as whm.

Nukes:
-Rdm: Tier 1-4 Banish 1-2 Banishga 1-2.
-Sch: Tier 1-5 up to aero (Blizzard after 95 update)
-Whm: Banish 1-3, Banishga 2, holy (holy II after update) Stone-Aero II
Summary: The only field where whm loses out, and personally ive yet to gear MAB gear on my whm to try and see how high i can nuke /rdm or /sch, but ive landed 1.2k holy and if holy II is anything improved over that, its plenty for a good kill-shot.

Overall: Cure V will make rdm/sch sufficient healers in a single target situation, it will not retire whm, just add competition.

Personal note to the white mage croud: You know whats worse that rdm and sch getting cure V? a massive influx of new whitemages gunning for all your whm specific gear and spot in events. Just let that sink in a bit.

[Sasaraixx]

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.

You have never played either SCH nor RDM before have you? There are so many inaccuracies in this post.

[Reaux]

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

[Raksha]

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

What should a Light Arts SCH be doing if they aren't healing?

All of our so-called support capability was given away to everyone via subbable Accession. WHM/SCH or RDM/SCH can both do AoE stoneskin (or hell, even WAR/SCH can do that!), RDM/SCH can do aoe phalanx, COR now gets TWO different, AND MORE POTENT regains.

Let's not forget that SCH isn't even the most MP efficient healer anymore. WHM/SCH has all of the mp tools that SCH main does (light arts, conserve mp, penury, sublimation) IN ADDITION TO pants which give you MP back for curing! Add on to that capped cure potency and cureskin and it's not even a contest. Only thing that would make WHM even better would be if they could Convert on top of all that.

Giving SCH or RDM a new cure (doesn't have to be cure5) isn't going to obsolete WHM AT ALL. WHM is still going to be far and away the best healer in the game.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional at best.

[Lilia]

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

you rly not know what the rdms want to say; is it fair that melee dd have cure4 with dnc sub, is it fair that blu have cure5? and rly why the whm have so much panic for a rdm with cure5?

And for the mom for what you need a rdm now.... much other jobs better.
cure5 can help rdm a bit better as secondhealer.