dev1024 - healing magic

[cidbahamut]

HoT spells would be a great way to deal with this issue instead of giving Rdm cure 5. That way whm is still hands down the best healer regardless of mp conservation and rdm can now some what keep ppl alive.

Except not really. When a monster swings and puts people in the red and you need them back up to at least yellow right away, Cure IV and even a Regen IV isn't going to cut it. The only way healing over time could make up the deficiency is if it was so monstrously powerful that it had White Mages in a fit over us stealing their Regen thunder. I'm talking hundreds of hp per tic, lasts more than a couple seconds kind of healing over time. I'm not sure that would be at all permissible from a game balance perspective.

You know, I keep hearing about the whole cureskin argument when backing up WHM in its curing power over RDM, and let me say...

If RDM were to get Cure 5, who cares if they can even get a stoneskin effect or not as long as they have the MP regeneration to support the person's HP bar? What would there be to worry about as long as they have 11MP/Refresh in both gear, AF3+2 Legs and Refresh 2 Spell, along with the extra Minikin Monstrosity Atma inside Abyssea (an additional 10 MP refresh)? That's 21 MP/Tic if you don't have a Subligar with Refresh+1. Then it would be 22 MP/Tic, and you would already have regained half of the MP cost of Cure 5 in just three seconds over the base recast time Cure 5 has. In 6 seconds flat that's approximately 132 MP returned.

One tic is equal to three seconds.

Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.

You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time.

[Reaux]

Except not really. When a monster swings and puts people in the red and you need them back up to at least yellow right away, Cure IV and even a Regen IV isn't going to cut it. The only way healing over time could make up the deficiency is if it was so monstrously powerful that it had White Mages in a fit over us stealing their Regen thunder. I'm talking hundreds of hp per tic, lasts more than a couple seconds kind of healing over time. I'm not sure that would be at all permissible from a game balance perspective.


One tic is equal to three seconds.

Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.

You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time.

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.

[Zatias]

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it.

Yes they are.

Cure V should be handed out to RDM and SCH. It still wont replace WHM, it will make them comfortable substitutes when the WHM is incapacitated = good support. Aren't RDM and SCH supposed to be supportive? Cure 4 spam is counter-supportive in a way. It yanks enmity between players and over time you will find the mob taking an interest to eating your face. What's that? Now you have to waste MP on the RDM or SCH to heal them.

If you WHMs still think that Cure V is your only hold on the top of the hill then learn to play WHM. And RDM and SCH who think they will be healing only or a "ghetto whm" you wont be, especially if they fix enfeebling magic vs NMs.

[SpankWustler]

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.

You don't understand what Red Mage and Scholar are actually capable of, the potency of their spells and abilities, or even what Scholar's basic abilities are called, and for that reason neither one should become a viable (but still second best) healer? Okay!

Hyrist, I do agree with your idea of how things should ideally work.

I don't think that's the case right now, though. With adequate MP restoration, I'm confident I could out-pace two or even three hybrid jobs working together on my single White Mage. If things go to a dark and unhappy place, casting Cure V and Cure VI back to back restores the HP of two people within about four seconds, and gives them 300-400 HP stoneskin.

I'd need both a Bard and Red Mage to reach that level in Voidwatch, and that feels pretty much right. The "best" healer should work best for an activity with difficulty as it's main draw, similar to how the "best" tank works best.

I find it off that healing works similarly in Abyssea, though, given how laid back the activity is otherwise. If it weren't for procs being needed, you could melee everything in Abyssea to death with Red Mages, White Mages, and Bards and not experience too much difficulty. White Mage being so far above other healers for an otherwise lackadaisical activity doesn't feel right to me.

[Quetzacoatl]

One tic is equal to three seconds.

Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.

You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time.

Gah, touché on that one. My point is though, the target's HP will be able to be sustained long enough with cure 5 to be able to refresh that MP back, including the conserve MP proc and light arts savings, considering your tank is decent enough to sustain himself for that long.

Therefore, with Slow II and Paralyze II in effect, we would still retain the mana battery title for curing. This is also considering you're doing nothing else- just Haste, Temper and Cure 5, over and over and over. That shit is boring, you can count me out of it.

[saevel]

As I've said before, those advocating for "Just give RDM Cure V" have no intention of playing the job. They only care about two things, one being that they have a replacement for WHM as a main healer, and the other being that they can use RDM to get gear for their "real" undesired jobs. RDM and BRD has historically suffered from the bandwagon mentality, with people jumping on to use it as an easy ride into HNM shells and eventually merit parties (once merits were invented). And every since Abyssea became popular these people have since used WHM, BLM and NIN to accomplish the same thing. This is evidenced at the ridiculous price jumps in all the WHM / BLM / NIN spells, especially the yellow proc ones.

I'd prefer that SCH got access to Cure V under addendum white and SE just give RDM the rest of the Regen spells and a special RDM only super regen. We don't need to be replacing WHM's as main healers, we need to be supporting them.

[Quetzacoatl]

I hear you on that one, Spank. As someone else said:

We don't need to be replacing WHM's as main healers, we need to be supporting them.

[cidbahamut]

As I've said before, those advocating for "Just give RDM Cure V" have no intention of playing the job.

Do you really believe this?

[Hyrist]

Really this argument isn't so much about whether or not RDM and SCH should get Cure V so much as it's an argument on whether or not they should be adequate 'Primary' Healers.

To which my answer to that is a flat no for many reasons.

Putting aside any debate as to the course of the job and the Melee aspects of RDM, the most important reason I do not see Sch nor Rdm as classes who should become solo healers is due to the number of other hybrid classes in the game as it stands.

Too much right now do players seek to standardize specific roles to one job. You see this in how people try to establish pecking orders such as who's the best DD, when each job has unique utilities and functions that allow them to be more variant than the bread and butter playstyle.

With capasities in jobs such as Blue Mage and Dancer to be able to heal, there is no true insentive to try to force more 'primary healers' in the game. Stated plainly, the duty can, and in my opinion, should be split. The ToAU concept of pushing healing and support aspects on as few slots as possible to maximize damage output was seen by me as a failure of concept, especially considering the job that fell into that one slot more often than not, was NOT the healing specialist.

As far as pecking order goes I believe SE has finally gotten it right. White Mage is the go-to specialist on healing, and the rest of the jobs have varying lesser degrees of healing they can provide to either assist a white mage in healing, or to split the duty among themselves while providing their primary roles to the party still.

The reason why Cure V has become a symbol on this matter is because it provides the big, one shot healing that serves as a major hamper against specific cure-possessing jobs, such as Scholar and Red Mage when they do not posses it. To which I say simply, instead of trying to rely on one or the other, invite them both, or some other hybrid variant.

Dancer, Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, Summoner, Paladin, Dragoon, Scholar and Red Mage all can provide some HP recovery to other members of the party on a regular basis, to varying degrees. Many combinations of the two of them are sufficient enough to handle the healing load for most general purposes. There's no reason why they cannot be made use of... and really, SHOULD be made use of more often. The curing shortage people are expriencing should encourage more variant groups, to accompany Offense Defense and Support, instead of searching for a single sole healer who shoulders both the burden and the blame more or less on their own.

White Mage has the incredible curing potential to handle this with minimal support, but that is because that is the job's primary function. Instead of trying to create more jobs to compete on this function, each of the other jobs listed above, as well as other jobs in general should get more tools to help assist those who do manage the cure, and to lighten up the burden on HP recovery. That way we encourage a more variant base instead of the constant shifting to whatever is the current 'best' so often.

As far as Cure V itself, it really depends on how far and away WHM stays ahead. I like this distance they have. If we're to catch up on being capable support jobs, I want to see that improvement thrown to our Enfeebles and Enhancing magic first. Cure V is not the quick fix Scholar or RDM needs.

[cidbahamut]

Really this argument isn't so much about whether or not RDM and SCH should get Cure V so much as it's an argument on whether or not they should be adequate 'Primary' Healers.

I think it goes a bit beyond that even. If you boil it down to its base components the argument is over whether or not there should be any job other than White Mage that is capable of filling the role of healer.

Currently there is not, and I hear a lot of people saying they think that's perfectly fine, or that we should just duct tape a bunch of support jobs together and pretend they'll work the same as a White Mage. That strikes me as bad game design.