dev1024 - healing magic

[SpankWustler]

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

I never called you any names, I just high-lighted the things you misunderstood. I guess it would have been more polite to give a full explanation, but I'm not sure where to start when the effect of Tier II en-spells are mentioned as something of any worth or value. There's a huge gulf between stuff it's safe to hit with a thing and stuff that has high magic evasion, even if the effect of the spells was worthwhile.

I'm sure they don't think it's the only way, but they're right in thinking it definitely helps. My White Mage with mediocre equipment can cure 1000 HP and provide 250 Stoneskin with the most MP efficient cure in the game. With better equipment, it would provide 350 Stoneskin. Identical to the cap on the actual spell, although with a lower duration.

Red Mage or Scholar can cure about 500-600 HP with less MP efficiency and more enmity gained. They lose out in every way. If Red Mage had more substantial defensive buffs they could cast on others, this would be okay. If Scholar had anything particularly useful in Light Arts beyond Light Weather, this would be okay. However, they do not.

I think Cure V itself just comes up so often because it's the easiest and most obvious solution. One preexisting spell is added to two spell lists, and KABLOOWIE! there's more than one viable healer for new content again.

I think it goes a bit beyond that even. If you boil it down to its base components the argument is over whether or not there should be any job other than White Mage that is capable of filling the role of healer.

Pretty much this. I won't fault the opinion of people who understand things well enough to say "There's only one viable healer for a lot of content right now, and I'm cool with that. I'd rather Red Mage and/or Scholar get other things to work better in tandem with White Mage." I'm not sure what other things they have in mind, especially for a Scholar using Light Arts, but I won't tear into anybody who has an accurate perception of things.

I just can't stand people who march proudly into topics, scream "FAST CAT REFROSH RUPTURE", then elaborate on their points by imagining a game with the same spell and ability names as FFXI but totally different mechanics.

[Stylin]

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

[cidbahamut]

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

This is some very shaky reasoning. Red Mage can still solo a ton of stuff without Cure V and could probably solo nearly as many things as it does now even if Cure IV was taken away as well. There are much more effective roadblocks to RDM soloing that SE can and does make use of.

[SpankWustler]

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

Unless Red Mage or Scholar can somehow solo and heal a group the same time, I don't see how one affects the balance of the other. Their soloing strategies typically aren't based around cure spells.

[Economizer]

Their soloing strategies typically aren't based around cure spells.

Convert + Cure V. Strategy made that largely changes how safe a RDM solo is.

Edit: I don't actually care about Cure V when discussing whether or not Red Mage should get Cure V, was just pointing this out. I'm sure I could probably think of more ways that a large cure spell would make a Red Mage solo way less risky or even possible, but I'm hoping this point gets the thought across.

[Lilia]

For me, i dont need cure 5 for solo, but cure 5 can help heal the party.

[Sasaraixx]

I never called you any names, I just high-lighted the things you misunderstood. I guess it would have been more polite to give a full explanation, but I'm not sure where to start when the effect of Tier II en-spells are mentioned as something of any worth or value. There's a huge gulf between stuff it's safe to hit with a thing and stuff that has high magic evasion, even if the effect of the spells was worthwhile.

I'm sure they don't think it's the only way, but they're right in thinking it definitely helps. My White Mage with mediocre equipment can cure 1000 HP and provide 250 Stoneskin with the most MP efficient cure in the game. With better equipment, it would provide 350 Stoneskin. Identical to the cap on the actual spell, although with a lower duration.

Red Mage or Scholar can cure about 500-600 HP with less MP efficiency and more enmity gained. They lose out in every way. If Red Mage had more substantial defensive buffs they could cast on others, this would be okay. If Scholar had anything particularly useful in Light Arts beyond Light Weather, this would be okay. However, they do not.

I think Cure V itself just comes up so often because it's the easiest and most obvious solution. One preexisting spell is added to two spell lists, and KABLOOWIE! there's more than one viable healer for new content again.



Pretty much this. I won't fault the opinion of people who understand things well enough to say "There's only one viable healer for a lot of content right now, and I'm cool with that. I'd rather Red Mage and/or Scholar get other things to work better in tandem with White Mage." I'm not sure what other things they have in mind, especially for a Scholar using Light Arts, but I won't tear into anybody who has an accurate perception of things.

I just can't stand people who march proudly into topics, scream "FAST CAT REFROSH RUPTURE", then elaborate on their points by imagining a game with the same spell and ability names as FFXI but totally different mechanics.

I would like your post twice if I could.

The question of whether or not WHM should be the *only* primary healer in the game is a debate that I am willing to entertain. But don't stroll in here and say "you have enspell II to add to the party." I know some WHM are concerned about losing their place as *the* best healer in the game. I have WHM leveled too! I have all 3 of the jobs in question leveled. Let me tell you, WHM brings so much to the table that even giving SCH or RDM Cure V will not change that. Even before the level cap, this was the case. The only area WHM suffered was Meripo parties because of RDM MP efficiency. (It still got more invites than SCH though.) In any other event, WHM always had a place.

MP efficiency is not really a problem for just about any mage job these days. The new equip, subjob options and abilities have made most of those concerns a lot less pressing.

I am of the opinion that WHM should be the best choice for the main healing slot in just about every situation. However, I would like both RDM and SCH to be *adequate* second choices to fill that spot. Currently, that is not the case in Abyssea or Voidwatch. Now, how they decide to go about doing this is up in the air.

Much to the dismay of some of you, the dev team has not ruled out the possibility of adding a higher tier cure at some point. They've said as much in their post. This seems like the easiest fix, but let's be honest, it is also the least creative and does very little to differentiate the 3 jobs. I would love if they developed a healing helix type of spell for SCH that was actually viable and buffed Light Arts and the new spells to actually be potent. What if the TP down spells they mentioned noticeably reduced the amount of TP moves an NM used or if the Animus spells were useful? How about additional bonuses to weather spells? It would be amazing if RDM received enhancing spells that sufficiently buffed the group and enfeebles that sufficiently debuffed the mob so that Cure IV would be enough to keep the group alive.

As you can see, in order to fill in for that WHM, both the SCH and RDM will have to work a lot harder and utilize all of the tools at their disposal. I have NO problems with this. I don't think any RDM or SCH in this thread wants to replace WHM. I think they would just like a reason to be invited!

Again, the content is changing as we move out of Abyssea. From what I've seen thus far though, while player HP pools are returning to normal, NM difficulty is increasing greatly. Both jobs need to bring something more to the table to warrant a spot on the team. SCH really brings nothing to the table as things stand now. RDM is there to Refresh the WHM and toss out extra Hastes. Something has to be done about this.

[Ophannus]

SE could give Cure 5 to RDM and WHM but adjust the formula so that MND or VIT aren't factored in, kinda like how Waltz was changed for /DNC so that CHR wasn't factored in. This way RDM SCH PLD get something more along the lines of Cure 4.5 which would heal around 600ish not adding in potency. They can also remove the enmity bonus associated with it so that it would draw massive hate(good for PLD, bad for RDM/SCH)

[Lilia]

sasarai 100% ya

[SpankWustler]

Convert + Cure V. Strategy made that largely changes how safe a RDM solo is.

Compared to gravity; bind; Stoneskin; Utsusem, Fast Cast, and Slow II working as a team; proper equipment for Elemental Magic; proper equipment to reduce or eliminate spell interruption; or just finding a really nice fence, casting one less cure after Convert wouldn't make much of a difference. Casting one cure rather than two would make the process safer, but wouldn't save anyone who used Convert right next to the monster without Stoneskin or shadow images.

You're definitely right that it would make the process less risky, but it wouldn't do so in a way that would allow any additional monsters to be killed by a lone Red Mage. It also wouldn't make the process any faster, and time spent is the main pitfall of soloing something nowadays.

Of course, this does raise an interesting point. The development team does some weird stuff so they may get all worked up over the idea of risk being reduced even with literally no other effects. I have no idea what their concept of "balance" is.