relic scythe

[Jar]

Caladbolg's delay is relatively inflexible when it comes to maintaining your 7-hit, especially with LR down or in low buff situations where you can't make trades with LR up. Apoc's gear options are wide open and it comes with 35 acc. Both primarily use 1-hit weaponskills, so you want to retain the ability to eat meat as long as possible... Caladbolg makes significant sacrifies and switches to pizza much sooner. At that point, Apoc is easily the better DPS weapon.

Ive been Hard pressed to find a Target other than AV and a few Voidwatch NMs that attack was all the hard to cap on with Dia III and angon on a Monster, With out this Tho Apoc seems Much more useful; Ragnarok aswell.

i assume that new Voidwatch Targets will Make Apoc shine but than again Voidwatch NMs are not the easiest to just attack. Most the time for Tier IV we just smn/rng/pup/blm it with a few more proc jobs in there(Speaking of RNG(COR) relic and empy Gun are amazing for Voidwatch).

[Dart]

trust me (because i've done it a helluva lot), the 35 acc doesn't make meat any more viable an option on t3>t4 voidwatch nms with crazy evasion (i'm not even going to start about obsolete AV lol), which are pretty much the only mobs in the game that the situation you're talking about applies too. Even with diabolic eye up (which I have fully merited of course so it's only down for 2 minutes out of every 5) your acc on those more annoying voidwatch nms is not close to cap. Plus cata blows chunks on voidwatch nms (lots of personal experience with this). ODD from torcleaver (which also blows) is still the clear cut winner.

Also maintaining your 7 hit with caladbolg is pretty flexible with gear options as well. You must be thinking of a 6 hit with it which completely restricts you to some pretty shitty options.

I'm sorry everyone we all want to make apoc shine again but until something significant is changed it just can't be what we want it to be.

[Chriscoffey]

trust me (because i've done it a helluva lot), the 35 acc doesn't make meat any more viable an option on t3>t4 voidwatch nms with crazy evasion (i'm not even going to start about obsolete AV lol), which are pretty much the only mobs in the game that the situation you're talking about applies too. Even with diabolic eye up (which I have fully merited of course so it's only down for 2 minutes out of every 5) your acc on those more annoying voidwatch nms is not close to cap. Plus cata blows chunks on voidwatch nms (lots of personal experience with this). ODD from torcleaver (which also blows) is still the clear cut winner.

Also maintaining your 7 hit with caladbolg is pretty flexible with gear options as well. You must be thinking of a 6 hit with it which completely restricts you to some pretty shitty options.

I'm sorry everyone we all want to make apoc shine again but until something significant is changed it just can't be what we want it to be.

I approve of this message - Chris Coffey

[Nightfyre]

trust me (because i've done it a helluva lot), the 35 acc doesn't make meat any more viable an option on t3>t4 voidwatch nms with crazy evasion (i'm not even going to start about obsolete AV lol), which are pretty much the only mobs in the game that the situation you're talking about applies too. Even with diabolic eye up (which I have fully merited of course so it's only down for 2 minutes out of every 5) your acc on those more annoying voidwatch nms is not close to cap. Plus cata blows chunks on voidwatch nms (lots of personal experience with this). ODD from torcleaver (which also blows) is still the clear cut winner.

Also maintaining your 7 hit with caladbolg is pretty flexible with gear options as well. You must be thinking of a 6 hit with it which completely restricts you to some pretty shitty options.

Compare:

Calad/Pole/---/Fire Bomblet
Zelus/Ziel/Bale/Brutal
Armadaberk/Bale +2/Mars'/Rajas
Atheling/Goading/Homam/Ryuga

Apoc/Pole/---/Fire Bomblet
Bale +2/Ziel/Bale/Brutal
Twilight/Bale +2/Mars/Rajas
Atheling/Anguinus/Perle/Ryuga

Aftermath up obviously, but I can make an aftermath down set that'll still have more acc than the Caladbolg set while maintaining Apoc's 6-hit even before considering the 35 accuracy on the weapon itself. With aftermath up, in non-weapon slots alone you're looking at nearly 45 accuracy, equivalent to the accuracy gains from Pizza +1. This is also disregarding the inherent skill difference between scythe and greatsword. There is absolutely a difference between the two.

Such a high amount of acc isn't needed for everything obviously, but you get the point. Apoc has a higher acc ceiling that Calabolg, a higher base acc than Caladbolg, and will outperform Caladbolg the moment the greatsword has to make sacrifices because Apoc sacrifices less at any given acc threshold.

If meat still isn't viable even with everything Apoc can use, then Caladbolg is way behind because that means Calad is barely capping or more likely failing to cap hitrate on said mobs.

I'm sorry everyone we all want to make apoc shine again but until something significant is changed it just can't be what we want it to be.

I don't particularly care either way. I'll have Caladbolg soon and it'll be my DRK weapon of choice for at least a couple of months. I might make Apoc down the line if its utility advantage and power against high-level monsters bears out with future updates, but I have no vested interest in the weapon's capabilities. If it doesn't have a place, I'll just make something else and stick to Caladbolg for DRK instead of having both Apoc and Caladbolg to choose from.

[Jar]

trust me (because i've done it a helluva lot), the 35 acc doesn't make meat any more viable an option on t3>t4 voidwatch nms with crazy evasion (i'm not even going to start about obsolete AV lol), which are pretty much the only mobs in the game that the situation you're talking about applies too. Even with diabolic eye up (which I have fully merited of course so it's only down for 2 minutes out of every 5) your acc on those more annoying voidwatch nms is not close to cap. Plus cata blows chunks on voidwatch nms (lots of personal experience with this). ODD from torcleaver (which also blows) is still the clear cut winner.

Also maintaining your 7 hit with caladbolg is pretty flexible with gear options as well. You must be thinking of a 6 hit with it which completely restricts you to some pretty shitty options.

I'm sorry everyone we all want to make apoc shine again but until something significant is changed it just can't be what we want it to be.

I think that it will Be a little bit more clean cut after the level 95 cap with all the skill Will change alot of this acc math around and make Apoc flexible again as well as the Crazy 154 dmg Apoc is being dat mined into having..(prob more acc too).

[Dart]

I know who he is and he's a respected poster on bg, but i'm sorry nite do you have any idea just how overpowered ODD from empy's is? I literally have parses from dozens of voidwatch fights. Caladbolg trashes my apoc everytime, its not even a close contest. I've used pizza, I've used straight up sushi, i've used rcb. Nothing makes apoc and cata even comparable. You aren't going to cap attack or acc on top tier voidwatch nms as their hp starts to decrease, yet. Hopefully 95 cap changes this.

@jar, yea that's my hope as well.

[Nightfyre]

I know who he is and he's a respected poster on bg, but i'm sorry nite do you have any idea just how overpowered ODD from empy's is?

15.56% more TP phase damage ignoring differences in TP/WS split assuming 6.25% procrate on Apoc's ODD. I don't remember the exact procrate for Apoc, I just remember that it's in the 5-10% range; trying to dig up info on it but I don't remember where the exact value was posted. 1/16 (6.25%) wouldn't be a surprise though. I lowball in simulations when I can't find an exact value to work with, so I've been using 5% on Apoc.

But yeah, from a more personal perspective I do. I have Kannagi and Almace, I'm probably going to make Caladbolg before the 95 patch arrives, most of the people I play with have at least one Empyrean. I get how powerful ODD is and it's a big part of why I heavily advocate people pursue the real Empyreans instead of WoE path weapons if it's remotely feasible for them.

I literally have parses from dozens of voidwatch fights. Caladbolg trashes my apoc everytime, its not even a close contest. I've used pizza, I've used straight up sushi, i've used rcb. Nothing makes apoc and cata even comparable. You aren't going to cap attack or acc on top tier voidwatch nms as their hp starts to decrease, yet. Hopefully 95 cap changes this.

Like I said, if you're not capping hitrate then Apoc wins outright. 35 acc on the weapon alone is a 22.5% minimum increase in total damage, nevermind the extra acc it can pull out elsewhere. While they can certainly be evasive, they're not so evasive as to peg your hitrate at 20% no matter what.

[Madawc]

If only Haste from Catastrophe was not capped from equip Id like to see it in its own category or paired with Magic haste.

[Chriscoffey]

If only Haste from Catastrophe was not capped from equip Id like to see it in its own category or paired with Magic haste.

Kirschy idea is much better with it taking its own form of haste and not passing the cap since apparently everyone emos from that idea on dark. I like to have versatility about what haste i could possibly be using.

[Atoreis]

It should break a cap. It's a relic not an AH weapon. I dont care about some emos. War got 2 powerful JA (retaliation and bloodrage) MNK got even stronger (Impetus) and DRK who should be king of the melee damage is still far behind. I understand it would only fix DRK for apoc users but that would be better than nothing.