New idea for Spirits...?

[Covenant]

I posted something similar, jokingly under the spirits/avatar thread. However, why have summoner suffer perp loss? Wouldn't a one time "high cost" bloodpact be better? Say in the 300mp range? I view this as the avatar summoning additional help. The add-on spirit could then only stay "out" as long as the avatar is "out".

[MakkotoParinne]

The stance should have a perpetuation increase because the Summoner is making a choice. Merit into your Avatar to make hit-for-hit or BP-for-BP do the maximum possible damage, or have merits into Spirit cost to have pets that aren't as strong, but have the possibility to trump the former. A one time cost would put your MP on the line where it would be inappropriate to spend that much. It just makes it a little more balanced, a give and take, if you will, especially if you wanted to Elemental Siphon while you had an Avatar out. You would spend 300 MP to gain 3/4 of what you normally Siphon for. (Personally, I'd rather add a negatable 5 perp. cost rather than spend a large chunk of MP)

Square Enix doesn't like to add things that give and don't take. (Even though they most likely would not look into this) The merits gave life to this idea in the first place, also. (From my persepective, I had no idea that someone else mentioned it on another thread)

[Malamasala]

Square Enix doesn't like to add things that give and don't take.

Well, some are luckier than others. Like SAM gets their penalty as "slower spell casting"... and they have no spells. I think a fair penalty for the avatar + spirit mode would be either "lowered cure potency" or "lowered attack for master". That means you are unaffected if you do not want to cure or melee, which are of course 2 popular activities, but neither is forced on you so you could dodge the penalty completely, like a SAM.

I'm also not quite certain if NIN had any penalties at all on their modes? I think it was just restricted to behind or in front.

[MakkotoParinne]

You're right in that aspect, Summoner isn't as fortunate when it comes to job adjustments where they receive a nice gift, without giving something. As far as that goes, listing something without some sort of penalty wouldn't follow the trend our job actually has. Doesn't every job wish they should get the same attention Samurai do?

Besides, perpetuation cost is something that is easily negated, via gear or refresh. I'd much rather have the same melee "potential" (Taru Summoner here...) and cure potency while easily reducing the cost of an extra assistant. (If you didn't merit Spirit perp., it's only 5 more a tick after all)

If you were reduced to being, essentially, unable to act.. that wouldn't be very much fun. We would just sit and watch uselessly. Why does that sound familiar...?

Innin actually reduces evasion and Yonin reduces accuracy. Hasso, for that matter, nerfs any "mage" (referring to Dark Knight) attempting to use magic under the effect. Drain when you really need it while it still has 45 seconds on its timer is rather unappealing.

[Korpg]

Well, some are luckier than others. Like SAM gets their penalty as "slower spell casting"... and they have no spells. I think a fair penalty for the avatar + spirit mode would be either "lowered cure potency" or "lowered attack for master". That means you are unaffected if you do not want to cure or melee, which are of course 2 popular activities, but neither is forced on you so you could dodge the penalty completely, like a SAM.

You are right, SAM/NINs don't exist in tanking ability, or did at the time they introduced Hasso/Seigan. Are you still gung-ho about Meditate vs Mana Cede?

I'm also not quite certain if NIN had any penalties at all on their modes? I think it was just restricted to behind or in front.

Yonin has an accuracy penalty, while Innin has an Evasion penalty. Most jobs have a penalty when it comes to doing their job, with the exception of MNK, THF, and a few other jobs that exist but I can't think of right off the bat.

[Malamasala]

Are you aware of how stupid your post is? Well, you are if you are a troll, and you aren't if you are a fool. I still would like to consider you trolling me since then I won't have to accept that someone can be that dumb.

SAM/NIN exists of course. Just like melee SMN or backline SMN, which is why I suggested the penalty would be attack or cure potency for the SMN. But a SMN who doesn't melee or cure, wouldn't be effected. Just how a SAM/WAR wouldn't be effected. That is the point that wooshed over your head.

Not to mention Innin seems to follow that pattern as well. Evasion penalty when not targeted by monsters seem fairly safe. You will be hit by more AOE TP moves, but that is it. A SMN for example could have 25% damage reduction penalty on avatars, and it wouldn't really mean much else than you can't solo as well with the stance up, but in other regards it would be fairly negligable except for AOE TP moves.

But yea, wasting my breath trying to preach to the deaf.

[Korpg]

So, basically you are asking for a huge buff to SMNs with a negative stat that won't effect SMNs at all? Like Haste+25% stance with a Store TP -50 on the player (not avatar)? I mean, that is what you mean from SAM and Hasso/Seigan...

Even your example does a negative effect from a subjob ability, not the main job...

Also, you don't know anything about Innin either. It isn't used to be a tanking move, in fact, NINs use it so they can not tank. But that evasion - part hurts when they do get hate, in case you can't figure that out....

But you are just trolling now anyway...

[MakkotoParinne]

Does adding 5 perpetuation make something like this complicated? No...
Does adding things like attack, haste, cure potency, and all that stuff make it complicated? Yeah...

:x

Anyway, the point was just to make it a little more rounded, for solo or party play. Extra melee, magic DD, Elemental Siphon to support yourself. The only other thing I can see that could go wrong is adding too much TP to the monster.. if that's the issue, just don't use the ability. :O

Making it into something "dodgable" is just kinda cowardly, anyway. Abilities should be designed to do what they need to do, and make the benefit outweigh the risk. The risk here is, if not properly geared, you would lose MP at a faster rate. Not everyone has -19 perp. cost gear, so I thought it would work pretty well. MP management is Summoner's forte, I guess.

I'd really not want for this to turn into an argument between you two, thanks.

[Malamasala]

Korpg, how does it feel like to be the biggest idiot on these forums?

So, basically you are asking for a huge buff to SMNs with a negative stat that won't effect SMNs at all? Like Haste+25% stance with a Store TP -50 on the player (not avatar)? I mean, that is what you mean from SAM and Hasso/Seigan...

Exactly.

Even your example does a negative effect from a subjob ability, not the main job...

Which goes for SAM's Hasso as well. You already said this yourself, with mentioning SAM/NIN.

Also, you don't know anything about Innin either. It isn't used to be a tanking move, in fact, NINs use it so they can not tank. But that evasion - part hurts when they do get hate, in case you can't figure that out....

Which is exactly what I said again. You aren't tanking, so evasion means little. But it will mean something sometimes, like during pulled hate. (I actually didn't say the hate pulling, but it was implied for people who can read between lines)

But you are just trolling now anyway...

Makkoto doesn't seem to think so. And still he disagrees with me.

[Malamasala]

Does adding 5 perpetuation make something like this complicated? No...
Does adding things like attack, haste, cure potency, and all that stuff make it complicated? Yeah...

It is about as complicated as Hasso. If SE could do it once, doing it again shouldn't be that hard. But if you want the more trivial suggestion, you always have the one about removing 25 of the 50% damage reduction avatars have. That would ruin avatar tanking during the ability, but that is again something that won't have a full time negative effect.

I'd really not want for this to turn into an argument between you two, thanks.

Don't worry, I've already proved him wrong twice so far. Now I'll just have to ignore him and he can have a one-way discussion where he thinks he wins due to no replies.